Manhattan College Invitational 2010
10/04/2010 10:46:18 AM
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You should take the teams from Delaware off your hit list. There was a massive blizzard that day! The districts in Delaware forbid teams from traveling or participating in an extra school activities! Why would you require teams to pay for something they didn't even participate in, had no choice in the matter and was during one of the biggest snow storms in the history of the area?
You should take the teams from Delaware off your hit list. There was a massive blizzard that day! The districts in Delaware forbid teams from traveling or participating in an extra school activities! Why would you require teams to pay for something they didn't even participate in, had no choice in the matter and was during one of the biggest snow storms in the history of the area?
10/04/2010 11:19:45 AM
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While I am not one of the meet directors, all I can say is that all fees for all meets are "Entry Fees" not "Participation Fees". If your school can't show up because of weather issues that's just too bad. That's the risk you take when you enter a meet that is hundreds of miles away. It is very likely when you enter meets that you took another teams spot, therefore you are paying for that spot.
While I am not one of the meet directors, all I can say is that all fees for all meets are "Entry Fees" not "Participation Fees". If your school can't show up because of weather issues that's just too bad. That's the risk you take when you enter a meet that is hundreds of miles away.

It is very likely when you enter meets that you took another teams spot, therefore you are paying for that spot.
10/04/2010 12:47:30 PM
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Coming from a Meet Director point of view (not this meet) entry fee is done so that all of your costs: awards, bathrooms, insurance, security, site rental, officials, and much more that can run into the thousands of dollards must be accounted for prior to the meet. If bad weather kept every team out then the Meet would still be responsible for those costs which is much more than a single teams entry fee. Costs must be covered and that is how they cover their own butt. As toetheline said, sometimes you get some bad luck with weather but the meet is not responsible for mother nature. Entry fee is clearly indicated on the entry form.
Coming from a Meet Director point of view (not this meet) entry fee is done so that all of your costs: awards, bathrooms, insurance, security, site rental, officials, and much more that can run into the thousands of dollards must be accounted for prior to the meet. If bad weather kept every team out then the Meet would still be responsible for those costs which is much more than a single teams entry fee. Costs must be covered and that is how they cover their own butt.

As toetheline said, sometimes you get some bad luck with weather but the meet is not responsible for mother nature. Entry fee is clearly indicated on the entry form.
10/04/2010 8:19:26 PM
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If you enroll your kid in a fee based activity, you pay even if your kid misses a game. If you enter a meet, you pay the entry fee. You pay rent even on the days you aren't home. This system of paying for something to have the opportunity to use it is not a novel one.
If you enroll your kid in a fee based activity, you pay even if your kid misses a game. If you enter a meet, you pay the entry fee. You pay rent even on the days you aren't home. This system of paying for something to have the opportunity to use it is not a novel one.
10/07/2010 10:33:02 AM
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Sorry, but none of your responses hold any water! Meet directors can make up all the "fees" they want and call them whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is, there costs are basically fixed. They don't order more medals because more teams enter. The number of medals is fixed to the events! And it didn't cost the meet almost $300 just for a team to enter their athletes electronically! Besides, like I said, and apparently nobody read, IT WAS THE BIGGEST SNOW STORM IN THE HISTORY OF THE MID-ATLANTIC UNTIL THE BIGGER ONES THAT CAME IN JANUARY! And the district made the call, not the two school's teams. The teams wanted to go but were not allowed. The meet directors are just asses that can't think outside the box. Probably government workers!
Sorry, but none of your responses hold any water! Meet directors can make up all the "fees" they want and call them whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is, there costs are basically fixed.

They don't order more medals because more teams enter. The number of medals is fixed to the events!

And it didn't cost the meet almost $300 just for a team to enter their athletes electronically!

Besides, like I said, and apparently nobody read, IT WAS THE BIGGEST SNOW STORM IN THE HISTORY OF THE MID-ATLANTIC UNTIL THE BIGGER ONES THAT CAME IN JANUARY!

And the district made the call, not the two school's teams. The teams wanted to go but were not allowed.

The meet directors are just asses that can't think outside the box. Probably government workers!
10/07/2010 10:33:23 AM
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@Voltaire Thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion.
@Voltaire Thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion.
10/07/2010 10:35:55 AM
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@toetheline No it's not too bad. What's too bad is a meet director not having a brain! They just use the term "entry" fee to try and legitimize their nonsense. They didn't lose $300 dollars by a teams NOT going! It didn't increase their costs more than the cost of the online entry process which is pennies per athlete! Give me a break!
@toetheline No it's not too bad. What's too bad is a meet director not having a brain! They just use the term "entry" fee to try and legitimize their nonsense. They didn't lose $300 dollars by a teams NOT going! It didn't increase their costs more than the cost of the online entry process which is pennies per athlete!

Give me a break!
10/07/2010 10:49:41 AM
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What if one of the team members had died suddenly the day before the meet or week of? Would the meet director still demand his stupid "entry" fee? Don't tell me there are no exceptions or allowances. This guy is just being pig headed!
What if one of the team members had died suddenly the day before the meet or week of? Would the meet director still demand his stupid "entry" fee?

Don't tell me there are no exceptions or allowances. This guy is just being pig headed!
10/13/2010 9:12:50 PM
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So you completely disregarded Voltaire's opinion for no reason, and you countered toetheline's (correct) logic by calling the meet directors stupid? Sorry if I'm coming off as rude, but I never would have expected such poor forum etiquette from a "Site Admin." What a joke.
So you completely disregarded Voltaire's opinion for no reason, and you countered toetheline's (correct) logic by calling the meet directors stupid?

Sorry if I'm coming off as rude, but I never would have expected such poor forum etiquette from a "Site Admin." What a joke.
10/14/2010 10:21:24 AM
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@Accordion No, I didn't disregard his opinion for no reason. I disregarded it because it contributed nothing to the discussion. What part of that do you not understand? You apparently didn't read anything else I wrote. I didn't simply counter toetheline's (incorrect) logic with one thing, I stated several reasons. Is your web browser not showing everything that I posted? You'd have to be more specific, because you don't point out anywhere that there is "poor forum etiquette". To quote you, "What a joke."
@Accordion

No, I didn't disregard his opinion for no reason. I disregarded it because it contributed nothing to the discussion. What part of that do you not understand?

You apparently didn't read anything else I wrote. I didn't simply counter toetheline's (incorrect) logic with one thing, I stated several reasons.

Is your web browser not showing everything that I posted?

You'd have to be more specific, because you don't point out anywhere that there is "poor forum etiquette".

To quote you, "What a joke."
10/14/2010 2:16:11 PM
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@adeyabo Actually your posts have contributed nothing to the discussion, except to criticize the meet directors in as many ways as possible. In the end it was the school's choice to enter the meet, and given that they were aware that if they were unable to attend they would still have to pay the entry fee, it is fair to conclude they were understanding of risks and willing to accept them. In the end they might not return to the meet, but it is again, their call. And doesn't matter if it was "the biggest snowfall in history" or whatever, bottom line is the couldn't attend but are still responsible for the entry fee. Entry fees are to ensure the cost of the meet can be covered at the end of the day, even if teams are unable to attend, as was stated before in an earlier post that I guess you didn't read.
@adeyabo

Actually your posts have contributed nothing to the discussion, except to criticize the meet directors in as many ways as possible. In the end it was the school's choice to enter the meet, and given that they were aware that if they were unable to attend they would still have to pay the entry fee, it is fair to conclude they were understanding of risks and willing to accept them. In the end they might not return to the meet, but it is again, their call. And doesn't matter if it was "the biggest snowfall in history" or whatever, bottom line is the couldn't attend but are still responsible for the entry fee. Entry fees are to ensure the cost of the meet can be covered at the end of the day, even if teams are unable to attend, as was stated before in an earlier post that I guess you didn't read.
10/16/2010 9:19:03 PM
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@Snyder005 Haha, nice try, but I'm sorry, just like the rest of the posters here, you have failed to make a case. BTW-I started the discussion, so there goes your first statement. Off to a bad start there. The only "fair" thing to do is for the meet director to stop being an ass and forget about the so called "entry" fee. I guess you didn't read the earlier posts (again, nice try with the insult, but seriously lacking) that the term "entry" fee has nothing to do with covering costs and everything to do with a made up term that meet directors use to try to sound like they actually have a valid reason for forcing a team to pay money when there was no cost to the meet BECAUSE THE TEAM NEVER SHOWED UP! And I like the one you and others have yet to address my specific arguments for why the meet director should not try and collect these fees. The are in fact circumstances where the right thing to do is let it go. This being one of them.
@Snyder005

Haha, nice try, but I'm sorry, just like the rest of the posters here, you have failed to make a case.

BTW-I started the discussion, so there goes your first statement. Off to a bad start there.

The only "fair" thing to do is for the meet director to stop being an ass and forget about the so called "entry" fee.

I guess you didn't read the earlier posts (again, nice try with the insult, but seriously lacking) that the term "entry" fee has nothing to do with covering costs and everything to do with a made up term that meet directors use to try to sound like they actually have a valid reason for forcing a team to pay money when there was no cost to the meet BECAUSE THE TEAM NEVER SHOWED UP!

And I like the one you and others have yet to address my specific arguments for why the meet director should not try and collect these fees.

The are in fact circumstances where the right thing to do is let it go. This being one of them.
10/16/2010 11:25:22 PM
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today I counted walking strides from the PSAL Dewitt Clinton starting line to the turn for cow path = 345 steps, then turned and walked straight to Manhattan College starting line = 427 steps...finish is same for both so one is def. longer than the other. Very Non-Scientific I know but I was bored and times today were much better compared to same kids a week ago.....too bad Cuffe didn't run today, she could have broken the course record after all..
today I counted walking strides from the PSAL Dewitt Clinton starting line to the turn for cow path = 345 steps, then turned and walked straight to Manhattan College starting line = 427 steps...finish is same for both so one is def. longer than the other. Very Non-Scientific I know but I was bored and times today were much better compared to same kids a week ago.....too bad Cuffe didn't run today, she could have broken the course record after all..
10/17/2010 9:58:51 AM
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is the finish line also different?
is the finish line also different?
10/17/2010 3:37:39 PM
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finish is same as Manhattan
finish is same as Manhattan
10/17/2010 7:55:03 PM
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@adeyabo While its true they haven't "lost" money by a team (or teams) not going, the cost isn't by team, but rather a "lump sum" to cover all the associated fees needed to run the meet, such as advertising, medals, facilities, etc. If the race directors did not collect an entry fee then they run the risk of losing money IF something were to happen, say a thunderstorm hit on the day of the meet and many of the teams backed out. Like it has been said they still need to pay off costs of the meet, I don't see why this is so hard to understand. I would try an analogy but you don't seem to like those... In any case your argument is that the entry fee is not a true "entry fee" but rather a way for the meet directors to get money. I replied by saying that even if it wasn't a true entry fee, it is labeled as such and thus coaches entering in the meet are aware of the nomenclature and understanding of the risks. In any case, of course the meet directors need to make money in order to organize the meet and advertise next years meet. There will always be extreme circumstances and these should be dealt with at the discretion of the meet directors, as it is their meet. Like I said, the Delaware teams might not come back next year, but is their call.
@adeyabo

While its true they haven't "lost" money by a team (or teams) not going, the cost isn't by team, but rather a "lump sum" to cover all the associated fees needed to run the meet, such as advertising, medals, facilities, etc. If the race directors did not collect an entry fee then they run the risk of losing money IF something were to happen, say a thunderstorm hit on the day of the meet and many of the teams backed out. Like it has been said they still need to pay off costs of the meet, I don't see why this is so hard to understand. I would try an analogy but you don't seem to like those...

In any case your argument is that the entry fee is not a true "entry fee" but rather a way for the meet directors to get money. I replied by saying that even if it wasn't a true entry fee, it is labeled as such and thus coaches entering in the meet are aware of the nomenclature and understanding of the risks. In any case, of course the meet directors need to make money in order to organize the meet and advertise next years meet. There will always be extreme circumstances and these should be dealt with at the discretion of the meet directors, as it is their meet. Like I said, the Delaware teams might not come back next year, but is their call.
10/18/2010 11:20:16 AM
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@Snyder005 When/where do I "seem" to not like analogies? Anyway, now we're getting to the bottom line. You say it clearly, the "entry" fee is to cover the meet directors butt, so, like you said, if he decides to cancel the meet, for whatever reason, he still gets his money. But if a team is prevented from going, as was the case with the DE teams, not just because of the snow storm, but because the school districts would not allow them, he is still asinine enough to try to force them to pay. I've already stated that just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean it is right to do it. I also gave a more serious situation where I would hope the obvious response would be to not force payment, i.e. a death or accident, so there are times, like last December, when a meet director shouldn't try to collect payment. Sadly, some people just can't think outside the box. And your right, the two DE teams will never go back, so instead of the meet director doing the right thing he is being stubborn over one year's payment and in doing so losing several year's future payments! His lose, especially since both teams, Delcastle girls and Glasgow boys are two of the best sprints schools in the state and region! All well.
@Snyder005

When/where do I "seem" to not like analogies?

Anyway, now we're getting to the bottom line. You say it clearly, the "entry" fee is to cover the meet directors butt, so, like you said, if he decides to cancel the meet, for whatever reason, he still gets his money.

But if a team is prevented from going, as was the case with the DE teams, not just because of the snow storm, but because the school districts would not allow them, he is still asinine enough to try to force them to pay.

I've already stated that just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean it is right to do it. I also gave a more serious situation where I would hope the obvious response would be to not force payment, i.e. a death or accident, so there are times, like last December, when a meet director shouldn't try to collect payment. Sadly, some people just can't think outside the box.

And your right, the two DE teams will never go back, so instead of the meet director doing the right thing he is being stubborn over one year's payment and in doing so losing several year's future payments!

His lose, especially since both teams, Delcastle girls and Glasgow boys are two of the best sprints schools in the state and region!

All well.
10/18/2010 7:18:54 PM
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The term entry fee is really way out of whack. The meet manager is the one who should always assume all of the financial risk because it is their business operation. Business risk in the real world is not assumed by the customer but by those who have the opportunity to turn a profit from the business opportunity, which is what a meet really is. Not coming to a meet is just like canceling an order or returning a product that you do not want. Businesses have something called customer service and customer relations. They realize that satisfying a customer can result in substantially more revenues from them in the future. Trying to demand payment for a service that the customer does not use is really stealing.
The term entry fee is really way out of whack. The meet manager is the one who should always assume all of the financial risk because it is their business operation. Business risk in the real world is not assumed by the customer but by those who have the opportunity to turn a profit from the business opportunity, which is what a meet really is.

Not coming to a meet is just like canceling an order or returning a product that you do not want. Businesses have something called customer service and customer relations. They realize that satisfying a customer can result in substantially more revenues from them in the future.

Trying to demand payment for a service that the customer does not use is really stealing.
10/18/2010 8:51:46 PM
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The term is "meet entry" not "meet participation"..... When a team enters the meet it is clearly stated on the entry form that it is an Entry fee and not participation.... it is not stealing if it is stated on the entry form. Unlike returning a product you do not want or canceling something else, it is according to the POLICY of the business to allow that. Would you then say it would be a good idea at meets where teams pay per contestant for the meet management to return money for kids that do not show up? Imagine a team of 25 and 4 don't compete, now multiply by the 25 teams that may enter....who's paying the person to sit there and deal with that book keeping nightmare to return the fees to those teams??? The fee is being paid by the districts, not likely coming out of any of the pockets of anybody on here complaining. If you are worried about budgets, you certainly would NOT be traveling to NYC from Deleware, staying in a hotel, eating out, etc.....I'm sure the meet entry was the cheapest part of the weekend. Did the hotel you were planning to stay in demand payment for rooms you did not use? The Manhattan entry is one of the more reasonable out there.....and if the school you are talking about is one of the best sprint schools in your area, as stated, will Manhattan REALLY be suffering in quality if you do not come in the future? I'm sure you can be very quickly replaced by so many other schools that want to come to the meet. This has all been blown way out of proportion, relax.
The term is "meet entry" not "meet participation".....
When a team enters the meet it is clearly stated on the entry form that it is an Entry fee and not participation.... it is not stealing if it is stated on the entry form. Unlike returning a product you do not want or canceling something else, it is according to the POLICY of the business to allow that. Would you then say it would be a good idea at meets where teams pay per contestant for the meet management to return money for kids that do not show up? Imagine a team of 25 and 4 don't compete, now multiply by the 25 teams that may enter....who's paying the person to sit there and deal with that book keeping nightmare to return the fees to those teams??? The fee is being paid by the districts, not likely coming out of any of the pockets of anybody on here complaining. If you are worried about budgets, you certainly would NOT be traveling to NYC from Deleware, staying in a hotel, eating out, etc.....I'm sure the meet entry was the cheapest part of the weekend. Did the hotel you were planning to stay in demand payment for rooms you did not use? The Manhattan entry is one of the more reasonable out there.....and if the school you are talking about is one of the best sprint schools in your area, as stated, will Manhattan REALLY be suffering in quality if you do not come in the future? I'm sure you can be very quickly replaced by so many other schools that want to come to the meet. This has all been blown way out of proportion, relax.
10/18/2010 8:59:19 PM
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according to this very site,,,, if you look up times for the girls you speak of, I see that the top girl was 28:00 for 5k this season.....is that true? You should email the Kranick's at Saratoga High School in NY and see if they got their money back, they pulled out too and they are the #2 ranked team in the COUNTRY....now, that would be a team Manhattan management would want back every year, and yet, I am sure they understood the meet entry was non-returnable....
according to this very site,,,,

if you look up times for the girls you speak of, I see that the top girl was 28:00 for 5k this season.....is that true? You should email the Kranick's at Saratoga High School in NY and see if they got their money back, they pulled out too and they are the #2 ranked team in the COUNTRY....now, that would be a team Manhattan management would want back every year, and yet, I am sure they understood the meet entry was non-returnable....

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