Three Divisions for Track
06/03/2018 10:23:35 PM
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 6
Anybody hearing of any further discussions on moving to 3 divisions in track? Was being discussed last year at this time by PIAA and was turned over to competition committee but haven’t heard anything about it since.
Anybody hearing of any further discussions on moving to 3 divisions in track? Was being discussed last year at this time by PIAA and was turned over to competition committee but haven't heard anything about it since.
06/04/2018 12:59:40 PM
Wb3
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 19
I see other states with three or more divisions and the bottom divisions can get a bit diluted regarding talent. I have lived in other states and I truly like only two divisions. Heck, this year many AA times were better than AAA times. This would not happen if we went to three divisions. I wish we only had two divisions in XC, however XC is a different animal because people really care about the team aspect. Besides, if anyone wants to keep a big one-day, all division meet, you couldn't do to three divisions. It would take forever.
I see other states with three or more divisions and the bottom divisions can get a bit diluted regarding talent. I have lived in other states and I truly like only two divisions. Heck, this year many AA times were better than AAA times. This would not happen if we went to three divisions. I wish we only had two divisions in XC, however XC is a different animal because people really care about the team aspect.

Besides, if anyone wants to keep a big one-day, all division meet, you couldn't do to three divisions. It would take forever.
06/04/2018 1:37:19 PM
User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 163
@WaltBumgarner I agree! We have had a number of Single A kids win the AA Track Championships in their events. Better to have a lot of comp than less. Track is an individual sport with a team component. Where cross country is more of a team sport than track is.
@WaltBumgarner

I agree! We have had a number of Single A kids win the AA Track Championships in their events. Better to have a lot of comp than less.

Track is an individual sport with a team component. Where cross country is more of a team sport than track is.
06/04/2018 2:15:25 PM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 37
This was a topic at the indoor state meet with about 8 coaches that want to see 3 classes...below is the feedback a group of us coaches got. Hopefully it makes sense. "There are a few hurdles, not huge hurdles but hurdles none the less, to clear before this gets serious" was the quote i think we heard. 1. Shippensburg is very popular as the site for state meet but they dont have lights...without lights, 3 classification meet can not get done in 2 days and a lot of administration in schools dont want a 3 day meet. 2. With 3 classifications a few districts in the west would probably have to merge for the AAA Class to make a district meet and some districts in the east would probably have to merge for A Class to make a district meet. Not a big deal, except what if (for example) your girls team is Class A and has to go to one place for districts and your boys are class AA and have to go to another. 3. Automatic qualifying...Right now there are 24 auto qualifiers in each classification per event...adding another classification and adding another 24 qualifiers to the state meet is not feasible (33% more kids) from a meet management standpoint. The thought kicked around was to find a way to cap each event at 24 participants max...To do that they would go down to 16 automatic qualifiers, broken down by district, (same format they are now) and then after all the district meets were done, take the next 8 best district performances to fill out spots 17 thru 24. That discussion was ongoing. Just what I heard.
This was a topic at the indoor state meet with about 8 coaches that want to see 3 classes...below is the feedback a group of us coaches got. Hopefully it makes sense. "There are a few hurdles, not huge hurdles but hurdles none the less, to clear before this gets serious" was the quote i think we heard.

1. Shippensburg is very popular as the site for state meet but they dont have lights...without lights, 3 classification meet can not get done in 2 days and a lot of administration in schools dont want a 3 day meet.

2. With 3 classifications a few districts in the west would probably have to merge for the AAA Class to make a district meet and some districts in the east would probably have to merge for A Class to make a district meet. Not a big deal, except what if (for example) your girls team is Class A and has to go to one place for districts and your boys are class AA and have to go to another.

3. Automatic qualifying...Right now there are 24 auto qualifiers in each classification per event...adding another classification and adding another 24 qualifiers to the state meet is not feasible (33% more kids) from a meet management standpoint. The thought kicked around was to find a way to cap each event at 24 participants max...To do that they would go down to 16 automatic qualifiers, broken down by district, (same format they are now) and then after all the district meets were done, take the next 8 best district performances to fill out spots 17 thru 24. That discussion was ongoing.

Just what I heard.
06/04/2018 5:41:14 PM
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 6
@WaltBumgarner Ideal world we could keep two classifications for individual events but have three divisions for relays. That seems to be where the biggest disparity is. Tough for most of the smaller schools in each classification to compete with schools that have 4 times the number of kids to potentially pull from.
@WaltBumgarner

Ideal world we could keep two classifications for individual events but have three divisions for relays. That seems to be where the biggest disparity is. Tough for most of the smaller schools in each classification to compete with schools that have 4 times the number of kids to potentially pull from.
06/05/2018 12:06:24 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 19
I agree that 3 classifications would dilute the talent a little. I'd be more in favor of few changes to actually improve the format currently in place: 1. No trials for 4x8-this would allow those athletes doubling back in the 800 or 1600 or even 3200 a better chance at success in their individual race while also not having to leave their teammates out to dry. It works indoors with teams from the "slow heat" running all out to get a medal. Happens all the time. Two heats on Saturday morning, top 8 times medal. I just don't see the value in making kids or coaches decide if they will run their best relay b/c it means running a top kid on the 4x8 twice and the 800 or 1600 twice in 48 hours. Some teams have great depth, others don't so why penalize teams for not having depth if their top 4 are worthy of a medal? 2. Only offer auto bids to winner in each district but after that make it the next 16 fastest times across the state that make the state standard (12 districts + 16=28 qualifiers). This way there is representation from each part of the state but then you don't have someone from a smaller district finishing the 200m 20-30 meters behind the field b/c they received an auto bid. This is more radical but I think worth some thought. 3. Follow up from #2-allow for provisional qualifiers if a kid has met a state qualifying time or mark during the season but does not hit the time/mark at District meet. For example-how many district meets are run in horrible weather impacting times/marks? Set the provisional mark for the boys 800 at 1:56.24. If a kid runs 1:56.19 2 weeks before Districts but misses out on that time at their district meet due to weather or circumstance, why keep that kid out of the State Meet if they clearly earned it? Some will argue that this would take away from the district meets but I think kids at that level will want to compete but knowing there is still a way in lessens the risks a coach may take running a kid in bad weather or tripling up in events at districts. Just my thoughts... 4. Finally, seed the 4x1 and 4x4 on times and run them in Finals only on Saturday. Again, with kids running the 100 for example, they could possibly have trials, semi's, and finals for 100, trials and finals for 4x1 in 48 hours. If they want to run the 200 that's potentially 7 races in 2 days! Why? At that point in the season, I would want to see great performances not tired kids. Fast teams will run fast so seed them based on their times and the fastest teams will medal. No need for trials in my opinion. Overall, the State Meet doesn't need much to change but these few things I think would help the overall success of the kids who earned the right to compete on the biggest stage.
I agree that 3 classifications would dilute the talent a little. I'd be more in favor of few changes to actually improve the format currently in place:

1. No trials for 4x8-this would allow those athletes doubling back in the 800 or 1600 or even 3200 a better chance at success in their individual race while also not having to leave their teammates out to dry. It works indoors with teams from the "slow heat" running all out to get a medal. Happens all the time. Two heats on Saturday morning, top 8 times medal. I just don't see the value in making kids or coaches decide if they will run their best relay b/c it means running a top kid on the 4x8 twice and the 800 or 1600 twice in 48 hours. Some teams have great depth, others don't so why penalize teams for not having depth if their top 4 are worthy of a medal?

2. Only offer auto bids to winner in each district but after that make it the next 16 fastest times across the state that make the state standard (12 districts + 16=28 qualifiers). This way there is representation from each part of the state but then you don't have someone from a smaller district finishing the 200m 20-30 meters behind the field b/c they received an auto bid. This is more radical but I think worth some thought.

3. Follow up from #2-allow for provisional qualifiers if a kid has met a state qualifying time or mark during the season but does not hit the time/mark at District meet. For example-how many district meets are run in horrible weather impacting times/marks? Set the provisional mark for the boys 800 at 1:56.24. If a kid runs 1:56.19 2 weeks before Districts but misses out on that time at their district meet due to weather or circumstance, why keep that kid out of the State Meet if they clearly earned it? Some will argue that this would take away from the district meets but I think kids at that level will want to compete but knowing there is still a way in lessens the risks a coach may take running a kid in bad weather or tripling up in events at districts. Just my thoughts...

4. Finally, seed the 4x1 and 4x4 on times and run them in Finals only on Saturday. Again, with kids running the 100 for example, they could possibly have trials, semi's, and finals for 100, trials and finals for 4x1 in 48 hours. If they want to run the 200 that's potentially 7 races in 2 days! Why? At that point in the season, I would want to see great performances not tired kids. Fast teams will run fast so seed them based on their times and the fastest teams will medal. No need for trials in my opinion.

Overall, the State Meet doesn't need much to change but these few things I think would help the overall success of the kids who earned the right to compete on the biggest stage.
06/05/2018 1:16:50 PM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 37
In some districts, 3 classes could be diluted. I think a minimum qualification performance to compete at states would be appropriate for Class A...maybe all classes...that performance standard could be waived by a district official in the case of poor weather. I think it’s all how you cut up the 3 classes, when you talk diluting the talent. In my opinion, the biggest inequity and reason 3 classes is appropriate is because with 2 classes, the smallest 10-15% of AAA is far out classed for the most part. In the last enrollment cycle if you were at a school that graduated just 165 kids you were considered a big/AAA school. Tough to being considered in equal classification if you have 165 kids in a class and your going up against Cumberland valley, state college, Altoona, Reading, that have 600-700-1000+. My ideal scenario is the biggest 150 schools have their own class and then divide the rest up in half for the 3 classes, that keeps the smallest classes as similar as possible to what it is now.
In some districts, 3 classes could be diluted. I think a minimum qualification performance to compete at states would be appropriate for Class A...maybe all classes...that performance standard could be waived by a district official in the case of poor weather. I think it's all how you cut up the 3 classes, when you talk diluting the talent.
In my opinion, the biggest inequity and reason 3 classes is appropriate is because with 2 classes, the smallest 10-15% of AAA is far out classed for the most part. In the last enrollment cycle if you were at a school that graduated just 165 kids you were considered a big/AAA school. Tough to being considered in equal classification if you have 165 kids in a class and your going up against Cumberland valley, state college, Altoona, Reading, that have 600-700-1000+. My ideal scenario is the biggest 150 schools have their own class and then divide the rest up in half for the 3 classes, that keeps the smallest classes as similar as possible to what it is now.
06/05/2018 7:03:55 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1478
There are 3 divisions now: AA, AAA, and special needs.
There are 3 divisions now: AA, AAA, and special needs.
06/06/2018 10:22:06 AM
User
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12
@JimDillner What is your problem with the Special Olympic Athletes? You said something last year in this thread that you didn’t appreciate the Special Olympics at the State Championship. Having a sister that has special needs and puts more time and effort in running to keep her in shape than most of these HS athletes gets me frustrated. You need to go to the State games at PSU to really appreciate the athletes with Special Needs. Theses athletes should be able to compete with kids there age and feel included with everyone Anyway... back on topic, three divisions should be the way to go. Ship needs to get lights at the Stadium to even host the meet in the first place. Also I think having the largest 150-170 HS in the State be in the large school division and having the rest of schools split in half.
@JimDillner
What is your problem with the Special Olympic Athletes? You said something last year in this thread that you didn't appreciate the Special Olympics at the State Championship. Having a sister that has special needs and puts more time and effort in running to keep her in shape than most of these HS athletes gets me frustrated. You need to go to the State games at PSU to really appreciate the athletes with Special Needs. Theses athletes should be able to compete with kids there age and feel included with everyone

Anyway... back on topic, three divisions should be the way to go. Ship needs to get lights at the Stadium to even host the meet in the first place. Also I think having the largest 150-170 HS in the State be in the large school division and having the rest of schools split in half.
06/06/2018 10:29:57 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1478
@cbrandt I think special olympics is great, and paraolympics is great. I am not sure why it is at the state meet.
@cbrandt I think special olympics is great, and paraolympics is great. I am not sure why it is at the state meet.
06/13/2018 6:48:39 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 12
@JimDillner I apologize for my response. I was just frustrated that day when I wrote that. I think it’s great as well.
@JimDillner I apologize for my response. I was just frustrated that day when I wrote that. I think it's great as well.
06/13/2018 11:34:10 PM
User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1478
@cbrandt No problem. I almost expected some more people to unload on me. By the way, I once knew a C. Brandt that went to Big Spring high school. Her dad owned an orchard.
@cbrandt No problem. I almost expected some more people to unload on me. By the way, I once knew a C. Brandt that went to Big Spring high school. Her dad owned an orchard.
06/16/2018 8:08:50 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 327
How 'bout these scenarios (just musings): Scene A. One division for individuals (school size has NO bearing on talent. Kratz from Dock, Gruber from Hickory, Jihad from Goretti, AA throwers), and have divisions for relays where school size matters when trying to get 4 quality kids Scene B. One division for schools that actually have a DISTRICT from which you MUST draw your talant, and then another for those WITHOUT district borders. (LaSalle, Shanahan, Glen Mills, Milton Hershey etc) And I can't even begin to guess how the public League works, as it's one huge school district with 30+ schools. (Can/does Imotep pull kids from the entire city of Phila.?? I have NO idea!) Again, these are just musings.
How 'bout these scenarios (just musings):

Scene A. One division for individuals (school size has NO bearing on talent. Kratz from Dock, Gruber from Hickory, Jihad from Goretti, AA throwers), and have divisions for relays where school size matters when trying to get 4 quality kids

Scene B. One division for schools that actually have a DISTRICT from which you MUST draw your talant, and then another for those WITHOUT district borders. (LaSalle, Shanahan, Glen Mills, Milton Hershey etc) And I can't even begin to guess how the public League works, as it's one huge school district with 30+ schools. (Can/does Imotep pull kids from the entire city of Phila.?? I have NO idea!)

Again, these are just musings.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.