The DVG and TFC are creating a gender gap, especially among distance runners...
02/14/2018 2:05:47 PM
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The DVGTCA does not care about female distance runners. First, you have only 7 qualifying meets and the Meet of Champs. Less opportunities than their male counterparts in the TFCAofGP with 8 qualifying meets, a last chance meet and the Meet of Champs. Now take that and cut it in half because you can only run either the DMR or the 4x800 each week and the Mile or the 3k each week. Giving those relays and individual events 4 qualifying meets and Meet of Champs. And now at the MOC you are going to take away lane 1 from the 200 to give those girls the best opportunity to qualify for PTFCA States (which I completely support) but you will still run only 1 heat of 19 athletes in the 3k on a 6 lane track. Not only will that start be crowded, but those top seeds will run through traffic and most likely lap athletes in the field. Also, can anyone answer why the girls pay the same entry as the boys but receive so much less for it? $400 gets the boys 8 regular season meets, 1 last chance, free entry into RJBIC, novice, MOC and a free outdoor meet, but the girls get 1 less regular season meet, 0 last chance, $75 to run at RJBIC, consolation, MOC and no outdoor meet. Talk about your gender gap! I can understand the RJBIC fee because the TFC hosts the event, but the rest is inexcusable. Last, why is DVG MOC a no scratch meet. I understand States being a no scratch meet, if you scratch then someone else could have competed. That is not the case here. You are just forcing athletes and coaches to make tough decisions about which events they want to go after state qualifying times and limiting their options by making it a no scratch meet. PIAA Districts is not a no scratch meet, TFC MOC is not a no scratch meet, what is the DVG's reasoning behind making this a no scratch meet. Too late to make these changes for this years event, votes have been cast, by-laws take time to change, but food for thought for the future...
The DVGTCA does not care about female distance runners. First, you have only 7 qualifying meets and the Meet of Champs. Less opportunities than their male counterparts in the TFCAofGP with 8 qualifying meets, a last chance meet and the Meet of Champs. Now take that and cut it in half because you can only run either the DMR or the 4x800 each week and the Mile or the 3k each week. Giving those relays and individual events 4 qualifying meets and Meet of Champs. And now at the MOC you are going to take away lane 1 from the 200 to give those girls the best opportunity to qualify for PTFCA States (which I completely support) but you will still run only 1 heat of 19 athletes in the 3k on a 6 lane track. Not only will that start be crowded, but those top seeds will run through traffic and most likely lap athletes in the field. Also, can anyone answer why the girls pay the same entry as the boys but receive so much less for it? $400 gets the boys 8 regular season meets, 1 last chance, free entry into RJBIC, novice, MOC and a free outdoor meet, but the girls get 1 less regular season meet, 0 last chance, $75 to run at RJBIC, consolation, MOC and no outdoor meet. Talk about your gender gap! I can understand the RJBIC fee because the TFC hosts the event, but the rest is inexcusable. Last, why is DVG MOC a no scratch meet. I understand States being a no scratch meet, if you scratch then someone else could have competed. That is not the case here. You are just forcing athletes and coaches to make tough decisions about which events they want to go after state qualifying times and limiting their options by making it a no scratch meet. PIAA Districts is not a no scratch meet, TFC MOC is not a no scratch meet, what is the DVG's reasoning behind making this a no scratch meet. Too late to make these changes for this years event, votes have been cast, by-laws take time to change, but food for thought for the future...
02/14/2018 10:23:16 PM
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@patrackdad That opening sentence was harsh. In fact, I think it's an insult to those men and women who started the VOLUNTEER organization decades ago, many of whom still help out. I think it's an insult to those coaches who go up, week after week, year after year. Most of them are working the meet so that their athletes, and hundreds of other athletes from the Delaware Valley can have the chance to compete, leaving little time to do much hands-on coaching at the meet itself. To claim that organization doesn't care about female runners is an insult. The organization is founded FOR female runners. There are things both organizations do well, as well as those that each could perhaps do better but you were out of line. I implore you to reach out to the Executive Board with your concerns as well as the coach of your daughter. Help be the change, not just a complainer.
@patrackdad

That opening sentence was harsh. In fact, I think it's an insult to those men and women who started the VOLUNTEER organization decades ago, many of whom still help out. I think it's an insult to those coaches who go up, week after week, year after year. Most of them are working the meet so that their athletes, and hundreds of other athletes from the Delaware Valley can have the chance to compete, leaving little time to do much hands-on coaching at the meet itself. To claim that organization doesn't care about female runners is an insult. The organization is founded FOR female runners.

There are things both organizations do well, as well as those that each could perhaps do better but you were out of line. I implore you to reach out to the Executive Board with your concerns as well as the coach of your daughter. Help be the change, not just a complainer.
02/15/2018 8:21:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 2018
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@nkosiek I’ll rescind my statement that they don’t care about the female distance runners. Obviously anyone who goes up to Lehigh every Friday night in the winter cares. It should say they care less about distance runners. Is that harsh? Yes, but the fact remains there is a gender gap in this sport, and if your a distance runner it’s a super gender gap. If Nick Kosiek runs for Central High and his best event is the mile, he would have 10 potential opportunities to qualify for MOC and an 11th to qualify for states if he did qualify for MOC. But if Nick had been born Nicole, she would only have 4 opportunities for MOC and a 5th opportunity to qualify for states. Talk about harsh circumstances. Same is true of the 3k, DMR and 4x8. The fact remains that even in the sprints the most you will have is 7 opportunities to the boys 10. That is the definition of a gender gap. Less opportunities for the same entry fee simply because they were born a woman.
@nkosiek
I'll rescind my statement that they don't care about the female distance runners. Obviously anyone who goes up to Lehigh every Friday night in the winter cares. It should say they care less about distance runners. Is that harsh? Yes, but the fact remains there is a gender gap in this sport, and if your a distance runner it's a super gender gap.

If Nick Kosiek runs for Central High and his best event is the mile, he would have 10 potential opportunities to qualify for MOC and an 11th to qualify for states if he did qualify for MOC. But if Nick had been born Nicole, she would only have 4 opportunities for MOC and a 5th opportunity to qualify for states. Talk about harsh circumstances. Same is true of the 3k, DMR and 4x8. The fact remains that even in the sprints the most you will have is 7 opportunities to the boys 10.

That is the definition of a gender gap. Less opportunities for the same entry fee simply because they were born a woman.
02/15/2018 10:40:15 AM
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One option to look at pursuing other opportunities is signing up for other meets. Teams are not limited to participating in the DVTFCA. In fact, most schools while they are a part of the association still run at other meets in and out of state (Ocean Breeze, Armory meets, State College Invitationals, Ursinus, Susquehanna, Franklin and Marshall, etc.) There are many opportunities outside of those you mentioned in the DVTFCA-maybe asking your coach or school to look into those options if you are dissatisfied would be a better option than critiquing coaches who are doing the best with what they have to work with. Someone smarter than me once said, "If you don't like what's going on than maybe you should take charge. If you're not willing to do that, than you really have no right to complain."
One option to look at pursuing other opportunities is signing up for other meets. Teams are not limited to participating in the DVTFCA. In fact, most schools while they are a part of the association still run at other meets in and out of state (Ocean Breeze, Armory meets, State College Invitationals, Ursinus, Susquehanna, Franklin and Marshall, etc.)

There are many opportunities outside of those you mentioned in the DVTFCA-maybe asking your coach or school to look into those options if you are dissatisfied would be a better option than critiquing coaches who are doing the best with what they have to work with. Someone smarter than me once said, "If you don't like what's going on than maybe you should take charge. If you're not willing to do that, than you really have no right to complain."
02/15/2018 11:01:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2018
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You are exactly right about the Ocean Breeze, Armory, Ursinus, F&M meets that give the girls more opportunities. But your argument is, if the girls want the same number of opportunities as the boys to qualify for states, they need to pay a significant amount more than the boys. Not to mention, none of these meets qualify for DVGTCA Meet of Champs. I am not arguing that there aren't opportunities elsewhere, I am arguing that there is a significant gender gap between the member schools of the DVGTCA and TFCAofGP and no one can seem to explain why that is or has given an argument that proves there isn't a gender gap. This isn't about a specific athlete or team. This is about every school that is a member of both associations.
You are exactly right about the Ocean Breeze, Armory, Ursinus, F&M meets that give the girls more opportunities. But your argument is, if the girls want the same number of opportunities as the boys to qualify for states, they need to pay a significant amount more than the boys. Not to mention, none of these meets qualify for DVGTCA Meet of Champs. I am not arguing that there aren't opportunities elsewhere, I am arguing that there is a significant gender gap between the member schools of the DVGTCA and TFCAofGP and no one can seem to explain why that is or has given an argument that proves there isn't a gender gap. This isn't about a specific athlete or team. This is about every school that is a member of both associations.
02/15/2018 2:32:12 PM
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[quote=patrackdad]@nkosiek I’ll rescind my statement that they don’t care about the female distance runners. Obviously anyone who goes up to Lehigh every Friday night in the winter cares. It should say they care less about distance runners. Is that harsh? Yes, but the fact remains there is a gender gap in this sport, and if your a distance runner it’s a super gender gap. If Nick Kosiek runs for Central High and his best event is the mile, he would have 10 potential opportunities to qualify for MOC and an 11th to qualify for states if he did qualify for MOC. But if Nick had been born Nicole, she would only have 4 opportunities for MOC and a 5th opportunity to qualify for states. Talk about harsh circumstances. Same is true of the 3k, DMR and 4x8. The fact remains that even in the sprints the most you will have is 7 opportunities to the boys 10. That is the definition of a gender gap. Less opportunities for the same entry fee simply because they were born a woman.[/quote] @patrackdad You're still wrong. I've seen it first hand and I've experienced it first hand. The coaches care deeply and not just about their own athletes but athletes from other teams. In years when Central has had really good distance runners, I've been approached for advice, offered advice, been congratulated, and at one very memorable meet, even had a rival coach yelling at my athlete to pick it up if possible so she would get the State Qualifier on the first meet of the season because he knew she was close. I've had the opportunity to speak to coaches from St. Basil's, Strath Haven, North Penn, Girls High, Harriton, Bensalem, and a host of other schools about how to go about doing things better, helping my girls, etc. In no way have I ever felt that they care less about Distance runners than sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, or throwers. The association has made choices to get a meet done with between 80-90 TEAMS each Friday night, in about 4.5 hours. TFCAofGP splits their association in two and over the course of 7 hours runs through about 50-65 teams (using the weekend of Jan 26/27 for these numbers). If I look at that, all of a sudden, I begin to see how it is possible for one association to run all the events while the other cannot. As for Nick, he only ran the mile in Gym class and he dogged it. Hindsight being 20-20, wellllll, perhaps he should have listened to his coach more. Also, Nicole has multiple opportunities to qualify for her ASSOCIATION'S MOC. She could qualify as part of 2 different relays and if you count Mid-d, 3 individual events. Coaches and athletes know over a month in advance what the times/distances are to qualify and can plan their racing schedule accordingly. The standards in the individual events for the DVGTCA aren't terribly difficult to attain for what is a Championship meet; for the Mile it is 20 seconds slower than the Indoor State Qualifying Guideline and for the 3k it is 45 seconds slower. As for opportunities, remember that none of the facilities are free and many years both associations have struggled finding hosts for some of their meets. It's not as though there are tons of locations to host these meets at, and many of the hosts have their own meets and events that limit when you can use them. Also, Indoor Track is not sponsored by the PIAA and so there are no standard meet events. You seem to have a beef with what they charge the schools, which I find almost laughable. Find me 6-7 invitationals this coming Spring that you can attend for $400 or less for all of them. As for your gender gap, have you started a thread to complain about why the guys can almost only 1 event each meet except for a choice meet twice a season? Nick could only run the 4x2 at the TFCAofGP but Nicole could run the 400 and the 4x4 at a DVGTCA meet. Again, each association has priorities and values, but I don't think being uncaring is part of either.
patrackdad wrote:
@nkosiek
I'll rescind my statement that they don't care about the female distance runners. Obviously anyone who goes up to Lehigh every Friday night in the winter cares. It should say they care less about distance runners. Is that harsh? Yes, but the fact remains there is a gender gap in this sport, and if your a distance runner it's a super gender gap.

If Nick Kosiek runs for Central High and his best event is the mile, he would have 10 potential opportunities to qualify for MOC and an 11th to qualify for states if he did qualify for MOC. But if Nick had been born Nicole, she would only have 4 opportunities for MOC and a 5th opportunity to qualify for states. Talk about harsh circumstances. Same is true of the 3k, DMR and 4x8. The fact remains that even in the sprints the most you will have is 7 opportunities to the boys 10.

That is the definition of a gender gap. Less opportunities for the same entry fee simply because they were born a woman.


@patrackdad
You're still wrong. I've seen it first hand and I've experienced it first hand. The coaches care deeply and not just about their own athletes but athletes from other teams. In years when Central has had really good distance runners, I've been approached for advice, offered advice, been congratulated, and at one very memorable meet, even had a rival coach yelling at my athlete to pick it up if possible so she would get the State Qualifier on the first meet of the season because he knew she was close. I've had the opportunity to speak to coaches from St. Basil's, Strath Haven, North Penn, Girls High, Harriton, Bensalem, and a host of other schools about how to go about doing things better, helping my girls, etc. In no way have I ever felt that they care less about Distance runners than sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, or throwers.

The association has made choices to get a meet done with between 80-90 TEAMS each Friday night, in about 4.5 hours. TFCAofGP splits their association in two and over the course of 7 hours runs through about 50-65 teams (using the weekend of Jan 26/27 for these numbers). If I look at that, all of a sudden, I begin to see how it is possible for one association to run all the events while the other cannot.

As for Nick, he only ran the mile in Gym class and he dogged it. Hindsight being 20-20, wellllll, perhaps he should have listened to his coach more. Also, Nicole has multiple opportunities to qualify for her ASSOCIATION'S MOC. She could qualify as part of 2 different relays and if you count Mid-d, 3 individual events. Coaches and athletes know over a month in advance what the times/distances are to qualify and can plan their racing schedule accordingly. The standards in the individual events for the DVGTCA aren't terribly difficult to attain for what is a Championship meet; for the Mile it is 20 seconds slower than the Indoor State Qualifying Guideline and for the 3k it is 45 seconds slower.

As for opportunities, remember that none of the facilities are free and many years both associations have struggled finding hosts for some of their meets. It's not as though there are tons of locations to host these meets at, and many of the hosts have their own meets and events that limit when you can use them. Also, Indoor Track is not sponsored by the PIAA and so there are no standard meet events.

You seem to have a beef with what they charge the schools, which I find almost laughable. Find me 6-7 invitationals this coming Spring that you can attend for $400 or less for all of them.

As for your gender gap, have you started a thread to complain about why the guys can almost only 1 event each meet except for a choice meet twice a season? Nick could only run the 4x2 at the TFCAofGP but Nicole could run the 400 and the 4x4 at a DVGTCA meet. Again, each association has priorities and values, but I don't think being uncaring is part of either.
02/15/2018 5:13:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2018
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$400 is a steal for a season. That is not the point, it’s laughable that’s how you interpreted that. From your post you claim the boys can have 30 less schools pay the same price (regardless of what that number is) and get 10 meets for 7 hours at these limited facilities but the girls get 7 meets for 4.5 hour each for that same price. Where does that extra money go? I would have to imagine 70 hours of track rental is more that 32 hours.
$400 is a steal for a season. That is not the point, it's laughable that's how you interpreted that. From your post you claim the boys can have 30 less schools pay the same price (regardless of what that number is) and get 10 meets for 7 hours at these limited facilities but the girls get 7 meets for 4.5 hour each for that same price. Where does that extra money go? I would have to imagine 70 hours of track rental is more that 32 hours.
02/16/2018 10:47:05 AM
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Again, you're griping about something that is a choice to be a part of or not. If you don't like it, don't join. No one is forcing you. Or better yet offer a tangible way to improve the current format other than just complaining. What is are your suggestions to make things the way YOU want it?
Again, you're griping about something that is a choice to be a part of or not. If you don't like it, don't join. No one is forcing you. Or better yet offer a tangible way to improve the current format other than just complaining. What is are your suggestions to make things the way YOU want it?
02/17/2018 5:00:39 PM
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Then start your own coaches association. The boys association had 1 more regular season meet over Xmas break when not necessarily everyone is racing anyway. Most years that is just affected by when Xmas and New Years falls. And as hard as it to accept alternating distance events, that really doesn't affect your top kids trying to qualify for MOC. Even on the boys side, top kids (or any kids for that matter) aren't going to run consecutive weeks of the 3k. If the coach puts them in the 3k late in January in any association, the kids know they're only getting one shot for a MOC qualifier. If they have a bad race and fell short of MOC, that's not the association's fault for having less meets. If you want to gripe for anyone, gripe for the developing distance kids on really large teams whose coaches have a difficult time getting them in enough meets. But there are still plenty of meets around for them and most coaches take advantage so those type of kids get to race enough in the winter. As far as the one heat of 3k, the middle of the entries, where you would make the break, were all decided by seconds. And it's a 3k, give me a break. Go to the Armory or Ocean Breeze where they run almost that many or more in an 800 or Mile. Deal with it. You don't want to get stuck in traffic, run faster and don't get stuck in traffic. Besides, it's Indoor Track, if you run XC it's the 3rd most important season of the year of 3 seasons. It's a glorified training season with races inserted.
Then start your own coaches association. The boys association had 1 more regular season meet over Xmas break when not necessarily everyone is racing anyway. Most years that is just affected by when Xmas and New Years falls. And as hard as it to accept alternating distance events, that really doesn't affect your top kids trying to qualify for MOC. Even on the boys side, top kids (or any kids for that matter) aren't going to run consecutive weeks of the 3k. If the coach puts them in the 3k late in January in any association, the kids know they're only getting one shot for a MOC qualifier. If they have a bad race and fell short of MOC, that's not the association's fault for having less meets. If you want to gripe for anyone, gripe for the developing distance kids on really large teams whose coaches have a difficult time getting them in enough meets. But there are still plenty of meets around for them and most coaches take advantage so those type of kids get to race enough in the winter. As far as the one heat of 3k, the middle of the entries, where you would make the break, were all decided by seconds. And it's a 3k, give me a break. Go to the Armory or Ocean Breeze where they run almost that many or more in an 800 or Mile. Deal with it. You don't want to get stuck in traffic, run faster and don't get stuck in traffic.

Besides, it's Indoor Track, if you run XC it's the 3rd most important season of the year of 3 seasons. It's a glorified training season with races inserted.

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