Tis the season....
10/01/2017 4:19:46 PM
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Leaves turning colors, a slight chill creeps into the air, and the message board erupts over the legitimacy of Westover, Asics, etc.. What else could it be but Fall in Georgia?? Wingfoot ended up being 4890m btw...discuss amongst yourselves...
Leaves turning colors, a slight chill creeps into the air, and the message board erupts over the legitimacy of Westover, Asics, etc.. What else could it be but Fall in Georgia??
Wingfoot ended up being 4890m btw...discuss amongst yourselves...
10/01/2017 5:12:01 PM
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@Gulsby I'm not saying you're wrong. The evidence is certainly there. I've definitely questioned it. But I think if you're going to call out a course like this, knowing what it will do to people's feelings, you need to identify yourself and what team you represent. Be honest or your measurement means nothing.
@Gulsby

I'm not saying you're wrong. The evidence is certainly there. I've definitely questioned it. But I think if you're going to call out a course like this, knowing what it will do to people's feelings, you need to identify yourself and what team you represent. Be honest or your measurement means nothing.
10/01/2017 5:34:52 PM
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I do not know who Gulsby who is but I did measure the first mile short yesterday and so did others on race day (One Coach had 1590 meters instead of 1609). I measured a little shorter then that. I also measured the last .1 of a mile and that was short as well. I think all coaches in the State would measure that short. I was at Darlington with my team and I went down the road with another coach (not sure he wants to be named to wheel). He wheeled on a meter wheel and I measured on a foot wheel. We both calibrated our wheels on the Darlington Track before leaving. Humbly -Stephen Jayaraj
I do not know who Gulsby who is but I did measure the first mile short yesterday and so did others on race day (One Coach had 1590 meters instead of 1609). I measured a little shorter then that. I also measured the last .1 of a mile and that was short as well. I think all coaches in the State would measure that short.

I was at Darlington with my team and I went down the road with another coach (not sure he wants to be named to wheel). He wheeled on a meter wheel and I measured on a foot wheel. We both calibrated our wheels on the Darlington Track before leaving.

Humbly
-Stephen Jayaraj
10/01/2017 6:27:51 PM
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@spxcoachrm I don't represent any team..lol. Hurt their feelings? Umm..you could also make an argument about marketing a race as 5K and knowing it's not. Regardless, it's all just for discussion until November anyway.
@spxcoachrm

I don't represent any team..lol. Hurt their feelings? Umm..you could also make an argument about marketing a race as 5K and knowing it's not. Regardless, it's all just for discussion until November anyway.
10/01/2017 7:17:08 PM
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Does this change if you don’t run the shortest path? How many kids actually run that path? Should we go back to the video and see how many times the leaders aren’t running the shortest path? No one has mentioned ASICS or Westover until now.
Does this change if you don't run the shortest path? How many kids actually run that path? Should we go back to the video and see how many times the leaders aren't running the shortest path? No one has mentioned ASICS or Westover until now.
10/01/2017 7:34:12 PM
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No, course measurement is coursemeasurement. Otherwise we would need to do different rankings per kid, I doubt anyone has the time for that. This is the shortest route possible if measured correctly, and yes almost every runner will run longer.
No, course measurement is coursemeasurement. Otherwise we would need to do different rankings per kid, I doubt anyone has the time for that. This is the shortest route possible if measured correctly, and yes almost every runner will run longer.
10/01/2017 7:40:09 PM
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@xcnewbee that was my point. Very few kids run the shortest measured distance that everyone is trying to wheel. On most course,if you’re in the middle,you’re not on the shortest path.
@xcnewbee that was my point. Very few kids run the shortest measured distance that everyone is trying to wheel. On most course,if you're in the middle,you're not on the shortest path.
10/02/2017 11:28:03 AM
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I will go ahead and step in on the measurement of the Wingfoot XC course. My team and I walked the course with our wheels measuring the shortest possible distance the runners could run once the fencing and flagging was in place. We measured within 20 feet of 5K multiple times at our finish line. If there was something incorrect in our measurement or calibration, we certainly did not intend for that to be the case. I stand by my team who measured it at 5K. I believe in truth in advertising, and if it were a 3 mile course I would have updated the information. We did this with the middle school. It was marketed at as a 2 mile race, but when we made course changes and measured it it came out closer to 3K, so we changed the distinction and let everyone know. According to @wheelinthesky's measurements we were no more than 60 meters short, but he did not measure the final 1.1. If we were indeed short we will make minor adjustments to remedy that next year.
I will go ahead and step in on the measurement of the Wingfoot XC course. My team and I walked the course with our wheels measuring the shortest possible distance the runners could run once the fencing and flagging was in place. We measured within 20 feet of 5K multiple times at our finish line. If there was something incorrect in our measurement or calibration, we certainly did not intend for that to be the case. I stand by my team who measured it at 5K.

I believe in truth in advertising, and if it were a 3 mile course I would have updated the information. We did this with the middle school. It was marketed at as a 2 mile race, but when we made course changes and measured it it came out closer to 3K, so we changed the distinction and let everyone know.

According to @wheelinthesky's measurements we were no more than 60 meters short, but he did not measure the final 1.1.

If we were indeed short we will make minor adjustments to remedy that next year.
10/02/2017 1:24:10 PM
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Not sure if this link has been posted on the forum before but this video is worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oY-DaWna3o I used this technique to measure the River Run this year and found it much more accurate and reliable than using a wheel. Yes, it took a lot longer but there is no doubt that it was a 5k.
Not sure if this link has been posted on the forum before but this video is worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oY-DaWna3o

I used this technique to measure the River Run this year and found it much more accurate and reliable than using a wheel. Yes, it took a lot longer but there is no doubt that it was a 5k.
10/02/2017 2:54:07 PM
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@etomas12 Enrique, excellent meet. My opinion is that you shouldn't stress too much over making it "exactly 5000m" because that's a losing battle in cross country. Nobody will ever get the same distance. Even if it's the same person wheeling it the same day. Next year I could see some people complaining that "it's long." I think most of us tend to want something to be close enough and then are content to move on. In my book yours was close enough, even if it was 110m short (although that source has neither provided evidence nor identified themselves, so seems unreliable). What I would hope you explore is getting permanent course markers in place. I personally would rather go to a course that I know is the exact same every single year versus a course that I know is exactly 5000m every year but a slightly different layout. Without something permanently marking those turns, your course will always vary from year to year. Perhaps plant trees on the course at the turns? Not sure how much control you could possibly have about something like that in a state park. But I assume you are looking at hosting it long term and in cross country almost all of the big meets across the country have historic, consistent courses.
@etomas12

Enrique, excellent meet. My opinion is that you shouldn't stress too much over making it "exactly 5000m" because that's a losing battle in cross country. Nobody will ever get the same distance. Even if it's the same person wheeling it the same day. Next year I could see some people complaining that "it's long." I think most of us tend to want something to be close enough and then are content to move on. In my book yours was close enough, even if it was 110m short (although that source has neither provided evidence nor identified themselves, so seems unreliable).

What I would hope you explore is getting permanent course markers in place. I personally would rather go to a course that I know is the exact same every single year versus a course that I know is exactly 5000m every year but a slightly different layout. Without something permanently marking those turns, your course will always vary from year to year. Perhaps plant trees on the course at the turns? Not sure how much control you could possibly have about something like that in a state park. But I assume you are looking at hosting it long term and in cross country almost all of the big meets across the country have historic, consistent courses.
10/02/2017 3:39:52 PM
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@spxcoachrm Unchanging is the best way to go. Year to year comparisons. Get some stakes set into the ground at Sam Smith so that one knows exactly where they stand. As a coach it is all that I really want/need. At Double dip the only thing that can move is the starting line and one turn run once. It is within 10m of 4920m every year (it was 4927 this year).
@spxcoachrm

Unchanging is the best way to go. Year to year comparisons. Get some stakes set into the ground at Sam Smith so that one knows exactly where they stand. As a coach it is all that I really want/need.

At Double dip the only thing that can move is the starting line and one turn run once. It is within 10m of 4920m every year (it was 4927 this year).
10/02/2017 3:53:17 PM
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@MaristXCcoach And course records. The top 25 list all time is one of the best things wake med has going for it. I'm a big fan of Milton's new board
@MaristXCcoach
And course records. The top 25 list all time is one of the best things wake med has going for it. I'm a big fan of Milton's new board
10/02/2017 4:07:37 PM
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Thanks for the insight. I certainly did not mean to make major changes, I loved the new layout we came up with, just widths in turns in some areas to improve the experience of the racers. I was not too concerned with being exactly "5K", but within margin of error. Especially since now we have a course that should finally go unchanged into next year. Permanent markers would be great and are on my wish list of things to work with the city to get installed.
Thanks for the insight. I certainly did not mean to make major changes, I loved the new layout we came up with, just widths in turns in some areas to improve the experience of the racers. I was not too concerned with being exactly "5K", but within margin of error. Especially since now we have a course that should finally go unchanged into next year.

Permanent markers would be great and are on my wish list of things to work with the city to get installed.
10/02/2017 4:10:04 PM
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@etomas12 A nice little tree line at the turn-around point for them to run around? haha
@etomas12 A nice little tree line at the turn-around point for them to run around? haha
10/02/2017 5:42:05 PM
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Agree, agree. Permanent course markings for comparative history. Course records. Both excellent. Keep inviting out of state programs down to compete and we won't have to travel as much to expose our kids to top level XC competition. Between NC, TN, KY, VA, FL... there are always a few top notch teams every year. Bring over The Woodlands, TX or some other historical powerhouse to serve as a measuring stick for our athletes. Maybe the Hunter's could be enticed into bringing Loudoun Valley down in 2017? I've always lamented that Georgia, outside of Coach's Invite, doesn't really host a killer track meet that can draw regionally or nationally. If the ATC keeps this up, we might just have it for XC.
Agree, agree. Permanent course markings for comparative history. Course records. Both excellent. Keep inviting out of state programs down to compete and we won't have to travel as much to expose our kids to top level XC competition. Between NC, TN, KY, VA, FL... there are always a few top notch teams every year. Bring over The Woodlands, TX or some other historical powerhouse to serve as a measuring stick for our athletes. Maybe the Hunter's could be enticed into bringing Loudoun Valley down in 2017? I've always lamented that Georgia, outside of Coach's Invite, doesn't really host a killer track meet that can draw regionally or nationally. If the ATC keeps this up, we might just have it for XC.
10/02/2017 6:50:48 PM
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Just wanted to join the conversation, I feel left out with our meet this weekend.
Just wanted to join the conversation, I feel left out with our meet this weekend.
10/02/2017 7:04:11 PM
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@BrianRobinson Be sure to wheel that thing a couple dozen times so it’s not 20 meters short.
@BrianRobinson Be sure to wheel that thing a couple dozen times so it's not 20 meters short.
10/02/2017 10:25:32 PM
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@spxcoachrm THX Coach! Milton's course has not changed since 2007 & has permanent mile & kilometer markers. Over the years the course has become wider, thus shortening it but it has been advertised as 5k (eventhough its closer to 5055m & getting a little shorter every year). We take great pride in our new billboard and top-5 all-time records and hope other schools can follow suit. year-to-year data on the same course layout is the best measuring stick of all, we often pass on meets that changes courses every year as we can never compare to when we ran there before/last time.
@spxcoachrm
THX Coach! Milton's course has not changed since 2007 & has permanent mile & kilometer markers. Over the years the course has become wider, thus shortening it but it has been advertised as 5k (eventhough its closer to 5055m & getting a little shorter every year). We take great pride in our new billboard and top-5 all-time records and hope other schools can follow suit. year-to-year data on the same course layout is the best measuring stick of all, we often pass on meets that changes courses every year as we can never compare to when we ran there before/last time.
10/03/2017 6:38:25 AM
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Sounds like I'm in the minority but if it turns out the course was short this year (which still sounds up for debate) then I'm for adjusting it slightly next year, since there is plenty of land and nothing preventing it, and then keeping it the same. But regardless it was a great meet and my team enjoyed it!
Sounds like I'm in the minority but if it turns out the course was short this year (which still sounds up for debate) then I'm for adjusting it slightly next year, since there is plenty of land and nothing preventing it, and then keeping it the same. But regardless it was a great meet and my team enjoyed it!
10/03/2017 7:45:57 AM
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To use terminology encountered on social media, when reading this thread, [url=https://media.giphy.com/media/GjYjLvGErsggg/giphy.gif]Coach Robinson be like...[/url]
To use terminology encountered on social media, when reading this thread,

Coach Robinson be like...

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