Unsanctioned events question
08/15/2017 8:28:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Are there any real repercussions to attending unsanctioned events? Maybe a better question is does anyone know of a team that has been fined or penalized for attending one?
Are there any real repercussions to attending unsanctioned events? Maybe a better question is does anyone know of a team that has been fined or penalized for attending one?
08/15/2017 9:25:14 AM
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@Uncle_Elvis I've seen it happen in track. I wasn't the head coach (distance only for track) so I don't know all the details but we got fined because the host school forgot to get a 10 team meet sanctioned and our coach didn't think to look and make sure it was sanctioned. I think (don't quote me on this) each school that attended got fined $100. No clue what the host school was fined.
@Uncle_Elvis

I've seen it happen in track. I wasn't the head coach (distance only for track) so I don't know all the details but we got fined because the host school forgot to get a 10 team meet sanctioned and our coach didn't think to look and make sure it was sanctioned. I think (don't quote me on this) each school that attended got fined $100. No clue what the host school was fined.
08/15/2017 1:41:14 PM
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Supposedly there's a fine. Our problem is that our county won't approve a field trip to a non-sanctioned competition. We have been trying to get the Gulf Coast Stampede sanctioned in Pensacola. This event has been sanctioned for 17 years straight. Now the GHSA has it listed as unapproved and will only say it is due to unnamed "issues". When I talk with out of state meet directors they say GA is always difficult and frustrating. Does anyone know why this may be?
Supposedly there's a fine. Our problem is that our county won't approve a field trip to a non-sanctioned competition. We have been trying to get the Gulf Coast Stampede sanctioned in Pensacola. This event has been sanctioned for 17 years straight. Now the GHSA has it listed as unapproved and will only say it is due to unnamed "issues". When I talk with out of state meet directors they say GA is always difficult and frustrating. Does anyone know why this may be?
08/15/2017 3:55:01 PM
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@LassiterCoach Go to the National Federation page for sanctioning. The reason listed Georgia did not approve... Georgia Denied 08/10/2017 02:32 PM FL indicates non-members from their state. It will never be approved as long as "non-member" schools are allowed to participate. So if the school is in Florida but not a member of the FHSAA.
@LassiterCoach

Go to the National Federation page for sanctioning.

The reason listed Georgia did not approve...
Georgia Denied 08/10/2017 02:32 PM FL indicates non-members from their state.

It will never be approved as long as "non-member" schools are allowed to participate. So if the school is in Florida but not a member of the FHSAA.
08/15/2017 5:11:20 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, you can get the meet director to contact someone (I assume the GHSA, maybe your A.D. - not 100% sure) to let them know that member & non-member schools will not be in the same race. I believe that events can get sanctioned that allow open, unattached, non-member athletes to compete, as long as those athletes are not competing in the same race as GHSA athletes. Again, I could be mistaken. Also, I think that fines can increase (or penalties more than fines can be levied) if it appears that someone intentionally broke the rules or if it is a repeat offense.
If I'm not mistaken, you can get the meet director to contact someone (I assume the GHSA, maybe your A.D. - not 100% sure) to let them know that member & non-member schools will not be in the same race. I believe that events can get sanctioned that allow open, unattached, non-member athletes to compete, as long as those athletes are not competing in the same race as GHSA athletes. Again, I could be mistaken.

Also, I think that fines can increase (or penalties more than fines can be levied) if it appears that someone intentionally broke the rules or if it is a repeat offense.
08/15/2017 7:28:55 PM
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@GACARTER Coach Carter is correct. A few years ago we asked for and were allowed to race at Adidas XC Challenge in Cary by showing no team in our particular race was a "non member" school. That did require me looking up every school in the race and verifying it for GHSA and sending them info. A little legwork but doable if you want to attend.
@GACARTER

Coach Carter is correct. A few years ago we asked for and were allowed to race at Adidas XC Challenge in Cary by showing no team in our particular race was a "non member" school. That did require me looking up every school in the race and verifying it for GHSA and sending them info. A little legwork but doable if you want to attend.
08/15/2017 7:33:49 PM
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TO answer the original question, if you compare the calendar on Milesplit with that on GHSA you will find many races that are not sanctioned. Many do not meet the requirements to be sanctioned, but quite a few of them do. I do not know of any Cross Country team that has been fined, but I also know of one track team that was fined.
TO answer the original question, if you compare the calendar on Milesplit with that on GHSA you will find many races that are not sanctioned. Many do not meet the requirements to be sanctioned, but quite a few of them do. I do not know of any Cross Country team that has been fined, but I also know of one track team that was fined.
08/15/2017 8:18:30 PM
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@WillWood The best example of this is if IMG Academy was competing in a race. They are not part of the Florida High School Association. Just look at how the state treats them for football. So, if they're in an XC or track race, it's likely GA wouldn't allow for that to happen. This was all brought to a head because the GHSA was tired of schools like IMG pulling the best athletes from teams in the state to play for their teams, essentially recruiting them.
@WillWood The best example of this is if IMG Academy was competing in a race. They are not part of the Florida High School Association. Just look at how the state treats them for football. So, if they're in an XC or track race, it's likely GA wouldn't allow for that to happen. This was all brought to a head because the GHSA was tired of schools like IMG pulling the best athletes from teams in the state to play for their teams, essentially recruiting them.
08/15/2017 10:54:50 PM
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[quote=BlackJack31]@GACARTER Coach Carter is correct. A few years ago we asked for and were allowed to race at Adidas XC Challenge in Cary by showing no team in our particular race was a "non member" school. That did require me looking up every school in the race and verifying it for GHSA and sending them info. A little legwork but doable if you want to attend.[/quote] @BlackJack31 I can second this as well. We are going to the Eye Opener meet in SC and there are non member schools from SC competing. The meet director is allowing me to run ALL of my runners in the International race where only members schools are racing. The meet director just had to indicate that on the form he filled out and was easily able to get it sanctioned.
BlackJack31 wrote:
@GACARTER

Coach Carter is correct. A few years ago we asked for and were allowed to race at Adidas XC Challenge in Cary by showing no team in our particular race was a "non member" school. That did require me looking up every school in the race and verifying it for GHSA and sending them info. A little legwork but doable if you want to attend.


@BlackJack31 I can second this as well. We are going to the Eye Opener meet in SC and there are non member schools from SC competing. The meet director is allowing me to run ALL of my runners in the International race where only members schools are racing. The meet director just had to indicate that on the form he filled out and was easily able to get it sanctioned.
08/16/2017 9:18:40 PM
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@RobtheAggie I submitted the paperwork for GHSA sanctioning for this weekend's Stage Races back in April or May. It was approved and we had the paperwork that it was approved back in the summer, but the meet wasn't on the approved list on the website until a week or so ago. If you're in doubt if a meet you're planning on attending is sanctioned, email the meet director. It could well be that the meet is approved, but isn't on the website.
@RobtheAggie
I submitted the paperwork for GHSA sanctioning for this weekend's Stage Races back in April or May. It was approved and we had the paperwork that it was approved back in the summer, but the meet wasn't on the approved list on the website until a week or so ago.

If you're in doubt if a meet you're planning on attending is sanctioned, email the meet director. It could well be that the meet is approved, but isn't on the website.
08/16/2017 10:36:11 PM
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Thanks Coaches, I do think we will be okay by the time the meet comes around. Here's a sort of unrelated question I've had, and never gotten a good answer to. What is the actual real harm done by competing against non-member schools? Are they somehow playing a different game? If we know what we are facing when we run against IMG then where is the harm? Is it that they don't pay dues to their association and therefore we are supposed to feel bad for the FHSA and not compete with them out of sympathy for NFHS state associations across the country? I've never felt like I was on "Team GHSA" as opposed to "Team GISA" and needed to shun them. All I've ever heard back on this is, "Well they aren't in their state's association." And when I say, "Yes, so what?" I get the same answer again. I'm not expecting this to change so I don't need to be convinced of the rightness of not competing. I'm just looking for a decent reason why it's so bad that we are compelled to avoid them at all costs.
Thanks Coaches, I do think we will be okay by the time the meet comes around.

Here's a sort of unrelated question I've had, and never gotten a good answer to. What is the actual real harm done by competing against non-member schools? Are they somehow playing a different game? If we know what we are facing when we run against IMG then where is the harm? Is it that they don't pay dues to their association and therefore we are supposed to feel bad for the FHSA and not compete with them out of sympathy for NFHS state associations across the country? I've never felt like I was on "Team GHSA" as opposed to "Team GISA" and needed to shun them. All I've ever heard back on this is, "Well they aren't in their state's association." And when I say, "Yes, so what?" I get the same answer again. I'm not expecting this to change so I don't need to be convinced of the rightness of not competing. I'm just looking for a decent reason why it's so bad that we are compelled to avoid them at all costs.
08/17/2017 8:28:22 AM
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@LassiterCoach One of the concerns is you have to pay to play. You pay to belong to the organizing body, in return you get the benefits of that organization. Why would an organization allow non-members to receive those benefits? A random football team cannot show up to an NFL stadium on Sundays and play the Patriots. Want to play the Pats, you have to be on a team in the NFL. A second issue, and my personal problem, are the different rules for eligibility. GISA and FHSAA allow 8th graders to compete varsity. I struggle to field a girls team with actual high school kids, let me throw on my 8th graders and I am in good shape (at least number wise). I am at a distinct disadvantage against schools/organizations when I have to adhere to stricter eligibility rules than they do.
@LassiterCoach

One of the concerns is you have to pay to play. You pay to belong to the organizing body, in return you get the benefits of that organization. Why would an organization allow non-members to receive those benefits? A random football team cannot show up to an NFL stadium on Sundays and play the Patriots. Want to play the Pats, you have to be on a team in the NFL.

A second issue, and my personal problem, are the different rules for eligibility. GISA and FHSAA allow 8th graders to compete varsity. I struggle to field a girls team with actual high school kids, let me throw on my 8th graders and I am in good shape (at least number wise). I am at a distinct disadvantage against schools/organizations when I have to adhere to stricter eligibility rules than they do.
08/17/2017 9:38:16 AM
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@Uncle_Elvis I believe there are also some safety-related issues in a few cases with non-sanctioned events. Ensuring that heat policies, the number of medical staff required, and that kind of thing that the GHSA requires is important. Also, as you said, eligibility requirements may vary from governing body to governing body. If one governing body allowed 20 year olds to play football, that'd put 18 year olds at risk.
@Uncle_Elvis I believe there are also some safety-related issues in a few cases with non-sanctioned events. Ensuring that heat policies, the number of medical staff required, and that kind of thing that the GHSA requires is important. Also, as you said, eligibility requirements may vary from governing body to governing body. If one governing body allowed 20 year olds to play football, that'd put 18 year olds at risk.
08/17/2017 10:41:55 AM
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@GACARTER Oh, no doubt. There is probably a laundry list of legitimate reasons. The two I gave were just ones related to my own experiences.
@GACARTER

Oh, no doubt. There is probably a laundry list of legitimate reasons. The two I gave were just ones related to my own experiences.
08/23/2017 11:09:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
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@LassiterCoach The Stampede is approved now. If you need the screen shot of the approval I can show you that. GA approved two months later than the other states, not a great system at all.
@LassiterCoach
The Stampede is approved now. If you need the screen shot of the approval I can show you that. GA approved two months later than the other states, not a great system at all.
08/23/2017 11:10:58 AM
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@WillWood I got this problem solved for the Stampede. The problem is GA waits over a month to take any action and then a few weeks to notify you and then a few more weeks to make changes after you have solved the problem. Extremely slow process. Every other state is easy.
@WillWood

I got this problem solved for the Stampede. The problem is GA waits over a month to take any action and then a few weeks to notify you and then a few more weeks to make changes after you have solved the problem. Extremely slow process. Every other state is easy.
08/23/2017 12:16:19 PM
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[quote=joliver1]@WillWood I got this problem solved for the Stampede. The problem is GA waits over a month to take any action and then a few weeks to notify you and then a few more weeks to make changes after you have solved the problem. Extremely slow process. Every other state is easy.[/quote] @joliver1 in my experience in working with the GHSA, I have found that if I called Tanya at the GHSA office and spoke to her directly, then we were able to get a meet sanctioned very quickly. It took me all of a couple hours of talking to the meet director and Tanya to get the Eye Opener Meet in SC sanctioned.
joliver1 wrote:
@WillWood

I got this problem solved for the Stampede. The problem is GA waits over a month to take any action and then a few weeks to notify you and then a few more weeks to make changes after you have solved the problem. Extremely slow process. Every other state is easy.


@joliver1 in my experience in working with the GHSA, I have found that if I called Tanya at the GHSA office and spoke to her directly, then we were able to get a meet sanctioned very quickly. It took me all of a couple hours of talking to the meet director and Tanya to get the Eye Opener Meet in SC sanctioned.
08/23/2017 2:19:50 PM
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I contacted the GHSA in June about getting my Florida events sanctioned and never heard a word. Once I found Tanya's e-mail and contacted her directly she had my events on the sanctioned list within two days. So I think it really depends on who you contact. I have personally never been to the Gulf Coast Stampede but I have heard nothing but great things about the event! Coach Oliver is always on top of things and knows his stuff! We also still have opening in the Florida Horse Park Invitational in Ocala (1 Georgia School already attending) and the Alligator Lake Invitational in Lake City (4 Georgia schools alreay attending). We will never turn down any Georgia school willing to travel down. www.b3rsports.com
I contacted the GHSA in June about getting my Florida events sanctioned and never heard a word.

Once I found Tanya's e-mail and contacted her directly she had my events on the sanctioned list within two days. So I think it really depends on who you contact.

I have personally never been to the Gulf Coast Stampede but I have heard nothing but great things about the event! Coach Oliver is always on top of things and knows his stuff!

We also still have opening in the Florida Horse Park Invitational in Ocala (1 Georgia School already attending) and the Alligator Lake Invitational in Lake City (4 Georgia schools alreay attending). We will never turn down any Georgia school willing to travel down. www.b3rsports.com
08/23/2017 2:24:59 PM
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[quote=LassiterCoach]Thanks Coaches, I do think we will be okay by the time the meet comes around. Here's a sort of unrelated question I've had, and never gotten a good answer to. What is the actual real harm done by competing against non-member schools? Are they somehow playing a different game? If we know what we are facing when we run against IMG then where is the harm? Is it that they don't pay dues to their association and therefore we are supposed to feel bad for the FHSA and not compete with them out of sympathy for NFHS state associations across the country? I've never felt like I was on "Team GHSA" as opposed to "Team GISA" and needed to shun them. All I've ever heard back on this is, "Well they aren't in their state's association." And when I say, "Yes, so what?" I get the same answer again. I'm not expecting this to change so I don't need to be convinced of the rightness of not competing. I'm just looking for a decent reason why it's so bad that we are compelled to avoid them at all costs.[/quote] @LassiterCoach From the way I Understand it, non member schools such as IMG do not pay to be in the FHSAA/ NHFS. Our state (Florida) allows some of the non members schools to compete against member schools during the regular season but can not participate in the post season. I am guessing it is because of money and because they technically do not have to follow any rules or guidelines like the member schools do. Since the events I host always has out of state teams I turn down non member schools wishing to come participate from Florida. I have already had to turn down 1 team this year so that the Georgia and Alabama schools coming down do not get fined and I do not lose my sanctioning for those states.
LassiterCoach wrote:
Thanks Coaches, I do think we will be okay by the time the meet comes around.

Here's a sort of unrelated question I've had, and never gotten a good answer to. What is the actual real harm done by competing against non-member schools? Are they somehow playing a different game? If we know what we are facing when we run against IMG then where is the harm? Is it that they don't pay dues to their association and therefore we are supposed to feel bad for the FHSA and not compete with them out of sympathy for NFHS state associations across the country? I've never felt like I was on "Team GHSA" as opposed to "Team GISA" and needed to shun them. All I've ever heard back on this is, "Well they aren't in their state's association." And when I say, "Yes, so what?" I get the same answer again. I'm not expecting this to change so I don't need to be convinced of the rightness of not competing. I'm just looking for a decent reason why it's so bad that we are compelled to avoid them at all costs.


@LassiterCoach

From the way I Understand it, non member schools such as IMG do not pay to be in the FHSAA/ NHFS. Our state (Florida) allows some of the non members schools to compete against member schools during the regular season but can not participate in the post season. I am guessing it is because of money and because they technically do not have to follow any rules or guidelines like the member schools do.

Since the events I host always has out of state teams I turn down non member schools wishing to come participate from Florida. I have already had to turn down 1 team this year so that the Georgia and Alabama schools coming down do not get fined and I do not lose my sanctioning for those states.
08/23/2017 2:35:07 PM
Coach
Joined: Feb 2008
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Same here, had to turn down a Florida Non-Sanctioned School and will continue to do so.
Same here, had to turn down a Florida Non-Sanctioned School and will continue to do so.

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