State DQs
11/07/2016 5:21:27 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 698
I am always fascinated and saddened by these. Here are the three DQ's from the 2016 GA State CC Meet. Aren't all of these violations based on warnings? Meaning when the athletes check in, aren't they asked to correct the problem, and then only DQ'ed if they run without correcting the problem? -- 488 J---- B------ C------ DQ No Shoes -- S---- F---- W------ DQ Jewelry -- G--- C---- K------ DQ Uniform Violation
I am always fascinated and saddened by these. Here are the three DQ's from the 2016 GA State CC Meet. Aren't all of these violations based on warnings? Meaning when the athletes check in, aren't they asked to correct the problem, and then only DQ'ed if they run without correcting the problem?

-- 488 J---- B------ C------ DQ No Shoes
-- S---- F---- W------ DQ Jewelry
-- G--- C---- K------ DQ Uniform Violation
11/07/2016 6:37:56 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 371
[quote=aparish] -- 488 J---- B------ C------ DQ No Shoes -- S---- F---- W------ DQ Jewelry -- G--- C---- K------ DQ Uniform Violation[/quote] @aparish Do not quote me but from what I heard of these the no shoes runner had them at the start but removed them intentionally either on course or at the start. They were also being strict with the jewelry policy. A headband that moved from around the head to around the neck by the end of the race would then be considered jewlery as it was not being worn as intended.... they announced that at the start line as part of instructions. I am assuming either the jewelry or uniform violation is related to that incident.
aparish wrote:

-- 488 J---- B------ C------ DQ No Shoes
-- S---- F---- W------ DQ Jewelry
-- G--- C---- K------ DQ Uniform Violation


@aparish

Do not quote me but from what I heard of these the no shoes runner had them at the start but removed them intentionally either on course or at the start.

They were also being strict with the jewelry policy. A headband that moved from around the head to around the neck by the end of the race would then be considered jewlery as it was not being worn as intended.... they announced that at the start line as part of instructions. I am assuming either the jewelry or uniform violation is related to that incident.
11/07/2016 6:41:15 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 698
Well, that makes sense for the no shoes I guess. But a headband sliding down resulting in a DQ? That is insanity.
Well, that makes sense for the no shoes I guess. But a headband sliding down resulting in a DQ? That is insanity.
11/07/2016 6:47:26 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 371
@aparish Not saying that IS what happened, just referencing an announcement that was made at the start specifically referencing that instance. Sounded too specific to me to not be relevant to a previous situation. I don't want to start rumors, but am fairly certain that was an issue. Someone else who heard exactly what happened should also chime in if they have any more information.
@aparish

Not saying that IS what happened, just referencing an announcement that was made at the start specifically referencing that instance. Sounded too specific to me to not be relevant to a previous situation.

I don't want to start rumors, but am fairly certain that was an issue. Someone else who heard exactly what happened should also chime in if they have any more information.
11/07/2016 8:19:33 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9
I was disappointed to hear about DQ's for uniform/jewelry violations that were not caught at the start during check in. I thought that was the whole point of checking kids in at the beginning. If a runner had a head band in and it fell down and went around their neck or they put it on their wrist so they wouldn't lose it should not be grounds for a DQ. That is why we made the warning rule in the first place so only kids who do not correct mistakes get DQ'd. We are here for the kids and for a kid to run their heart out and then DQ them because a head band came off during the race is crazy. A general announcement at the start of a race should not constitute a warning because then every violation would be a DQ because almost every coach has told their kids not to wear jewelry so they have all been warned. We have to do better for our kids than to DQ kids for headbands not staying on.
I was disappointed to hear about DQ's for uniform/jewelry violations that were not caught at the start during check in. I thought that was the whole point of checking kids in at the beginning. If a runner had a head band in and it fell down and went around their neck or they put it on their wrist so they wouldn't lose it should not be grounds for a DQ. That is why we made the warning rule in the first place so only kids who do not correct mistakes get DQ'd. We are here for the kids and for a kid to run their heart out and then DQ them because a head band came off during the race is crazy. A general announcement at the start of a race should not constitute a warning because then every violation would be a DQ because almost every coach has told their kids not to wear jewelry so they have all been warned. We have to do better for our kids than to DQ kids for headbands not staying on.
11/07/2016 10:24:22 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 490
@drogers agree 100%. Meet officials the last 2 years, in their fervor to "enforce the rules", don't apply a common sense approach. If asked, I'd guess that 99% of coaches, parents and athletes would not see a headband that slips or is pushed down around the neck as "jewelry". Nor, do I think that this would be classified as "jewelry" to any rational person who read either the GA or national federation rule books. Sounds like more of last year's headband gate. It is time for a very hard review on the state meet officials and change to a system that puts a head referee in place who consistently plays god and makes up rules as he goes along. If these DQs were appealed and the 3 person board upheld it, there should be questions on who is on the appeals panel. If the appeals panel will 100% of the time blindly go along with the officials (again, people who are paid on our behalf to monitor fair play for the good of all the kids) and will never consider appeals due to political pressure to back up the official, then having a jury of appeal is a farce. Maybe it is time to have a review and clarification of the jewelry rule for cross country. Why did someone decide to put the rule in place? Was it safety focused? Was it a self expression rule? To enforce a rule, I think meet officials have to understand the purpose. Unless the official found a headband a "safety" concern or a "self expression issue" then why bother with the DQ? But again, everyone should be clear on the reason for the rule to judge its enforcement. And, as others have stated, unless the athlete had the headband around his/her neck at check in and was warned by a meet official in advance, they can't be DQed according to the rules. Also, for educational purposes for all the coaches and athletes who are on this board, where in the rule book does it say athletes in cross country must wear shoes? Since a DQ happened, there must be a published rule which forbids barefoot running. I just have not been able to find it.
@drogers agree 100%. Meet officials the last 2 years, in their fervor to "enforce the rules", don't apply a common sense approach. If asked, I'd guess that 99% of coaches, parents and athletes would not see a headband that slips or is pushed down around the neck as "jewelry". Nor, do I think that this would be classified as "jewelry" to any rational person who read either the GA or national federation rule books.

Sounds like more of last year's headband gate. It is time for a very hard review on the state meet officials and change to a system that puts a head referee in place who consistently plays god and makes up rules as he goes along. If these DQs were appealed and the 3 person board upheld it, there should be questions on who is on the appeals panel. If the appeals panel will 100% of the time blindly go along with the officials (again, people who are paid on our behalf to monitor fair play for the good of all the kids) and will never consider appeals due to political pressure to back up the official, then having a jury of appeal is a farce.

Maybe it is time to have a review and clarification of the jewelry rule for cross country. Why did someone decide to put the rule in place? Was it safety focused? Was it a self expression rule? To enforce a rule, I think meet officials have to understand the purpose. Unless the official found a headband a "safety" concern or a "self expression issue" then why bother with the DQ? But again, everyone should be clear on the reason for the rule to judge its enforcement. And, as others have stated, unless the athlete had the headband around his/her neck at check in and was warned by a meet official in advance, they can't be DQed according to the rules.

Also, for educational purposes for all the coaches and athletes who are on this board, where in the rule book does it say athletes in cross country must wear shoes? Since a DQ happened, there must be a published rule which forbids barefoot running. I just have not been able to find it.
11/07/2016 10:35:23 AM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
@crossfan2861 Rule 8.6 of NFHS guidelines. Article 1a. Competitors must wear shoes and then a description of shoes follows.
@crossfan2861

Rule 8.6 of NFHS guidelines. Article 1a. Competitors must wear shoes and then a description of shoes follows.
11/07/2016 10:35:37 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 677
Are the DQ's listed in the results like in track? I didn't see any.
Are the DQ's listed in the results like in track? I didn't see any.
11/07/2016 10:39:24 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 82
NFHS 2016 rule book under cross country rule 4 section 3 article 1,a "Each competitor shall wear shoes". It goes on to say "both feet" "can be fastened securely"
NFHS 2016 rule book under cross country rule 4 section 3 article 1,a
"Each competitor shall wear shoes". It goes on to say "both feet" "can be fastened securely"
11/07/2016 11:55:52 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 163
[quote=goldeneaglexc]Are the DQ's listed in the results like in track? I didn't see any.[/quote] @goldeneaglexc They are listed at the bottom of each race on the Perfect Timing Group live results site.
goldeneaglexc wrote:
Are the DQ's listed in the results like in track? I didn't see any.


@goldeneaglexc

They are listed at the bottom of each race on the Perfect Timing Group live results site.
11/07/2016 12:02:56 PM
Coach
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 118
I know when I was at the start of the 7A Girls race, I overheard two meet officials talking and one said to the other that for all the races after the 7A girls race, they were going to tell kids to take out ribbons in their hair because it was too distracting. We were worried because our girls all made team ribbons to wear that were our school colors. The ribbons did not contain any metal so I thought we were good to go. I also did not know that something being considered a distraction by one official was grounds for banning that item. We did not experience any DQs but it does not seem very consistent to allow some races to run in ribbons and some not to. It also does not seem fair for a meet official to just declare to another meet official something they will enforce for the remaining races. I would agree that something needs to be done in regards to the meet officials and the power that they have. Common sense definitely needs to be used.
I know when I was at the start of the 7A Girls race, I overheard two meet officials talking and one said to the other that for all the races after the 7A girls race, they were going to tell kids to take out ribbons in their hair because it was too distracting. We were worried because our girls all made team ribbons to wear that were our school colors. The ribbons did not contain any metal so I thought we were good to go. I also did not know that something being considered a distraction by one official was grounds for banning that item. We did not experience any DQs but it does not seem very consistent to allow some races to run in ribbons and some not to. It also does not seem fair for a meet official to just declare to another meet official something they will enforce for the remaining races. I would agree that something needs to be done in regards to the meet officials and the power that they have. Common sense definitely needs to be used.
11/07/2016 12:34:03 PM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 490
@MaristXCcoach Thanks! Must be a safety concern. I figured there was a rule. Interesting to note that one of the better runners in women's NCAA D1 this year runs barefoot. For you old school coaches, she runs at Coastal Carolina, is South African where barefoot running is more common than running in shoes and is coached by none other than Zola Pieterse who is most famous for having a collision with Mary Decker/Slaney at the 1984 LA Olympics.
@MaristXCcoach Thanks! Must be a safety concern. I figured there was a rule.

Interesting to note that one of the better runners in women's NCAA D1 this year runs barefoot. For you old school coaches, she runs at Coastal Carolina, is South African where barefoot running is more common than running in shoes and is coached by none other than Zola Pieterse who is most famous for having a collision with Mary Decker/Slaney at the 1984 LA Olympics.
11/07/2016 1:13:56 PM
User
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18
[quote=crossfan2861]@MaristXCcoach Thanks! Must be a safety concern. I figured there was a rule. Interesting to note that one of the better runners in women's NCAA D1 this year runs barefoot. For you old school coaches, she runs at Coastal Carolina, is South African where barefoot running is more common than running in shoes and is coached by none other than Zola Pieterse who is most famous for having a collision with Mary Decker/Slaney at the 1984 LA Olympics.[/quote] The NCAA, USATF and IAAF allow barefoot running. High School rules do not. Abebe Bikila famously won the 1960 Olympic marathon barefoot (then won again in 1964 wearing shoes). Zola Budd also won two World Cross Country Championships barefoot.
crossfan2861 wrote:
@MaristXCcoach Thanks! Must be a safety concern. I figured there was a rule.

Interesting to note that one of the better runners in women's NCAA D1 this year runs barefoot. For you old school coaches, she runs at Coastal Carolina, is South African where barefoot running is more common than running in shoes and is coached by none other than Zola Pieterse who is most famous for having a collision with Mary Decker/Slaney at the 1984 LA Olympics.

The NCAA, USATF and IAAF allow barefoot running. High School rules do not. Abebe Bikila famously won the 1960 Olympic marathon barefoot (then won again in 1964 wearing shoes). Zola Budd also won two World Cross Country Championships barefoot.
11/07/2016 8:22:16 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2924
@crossfan2861 Zola Budd back then
@crossfan2861 Zola Budd back then
11/07/2016 9:04:10 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
As a coach of a DQed runner I will chime in here. Our boys were running when the girls could check in. Since I and my only paid assistant were out on the course working we asked our MS coach to check in the team. At 8:15 the official did not ask the girls to take of their over layer to check the uniforms, only to lift their over shirts to see the correct numbers. Additionally she told the runners to take out their bobby pins in their hair. This is a direct contradiction to the way check ins should happen and shows a lack of knowledge of the rules on hair control devises. From the GHAS Coaches Hand book (g) Hair control devices, such as bobby pins, barrettes and hair clips, no longer than 2 inches, may be worn to control a competitor’s hair. So here is my point. If it is legal to be worn then why is it not legal if it is on another area of the body when the runner crosses the line? My runner had an extra hair rubber band on her wrist in case the one in her hair broke. She forgot to take it off her wrist and the meet official that checked her in never said anything about it. I asked a GHAS Director "if she had the band in her hand would she have been legal" and he said "yes". Thus this young lady was robed of her finish time because of a matter of a few inches. How does this make her a better runner or keep others from running their best. Why does this frivolous rule exist other than an official being able to effect the outcome of a foot race? WE need to get together and ask each of our region reps to the GHSA to get the rules changed to match that of the USTA and the NHSF.
As a coach of a DQed runner I will chime in here. Our boys were running when the girls could check in. Since I and my only paid assistant were out on the course working we asked our MS coach to check in the team. At 8:15 the official did not ask the girls to take of their over layer to check the uniforms, only to lift their over shirts to see the correct numbers. Additionally she told the runners to take out their bobby pins in their hair. This is a direct contradiction to the way check ins should happen and shows a lack of knowledge of the rules on hair control devises. From the GHAS Coaches Hand book (g) Hair control devices, such as bobby pins, barrettes and hair clips, no longer than 2 inches, may be worn to control a competitor's hair.
So here is my point. If it is legal to be worn then why is it not legal if it is on another area of the body when the runner crosses the line? My runner had an extra hair rubber band on her wrist in case the one in her hair broke. She forgot to take it off her wrist and the meet official that checked her in never said anything about it. I asked a GHAS Director "if she had the band in her hand would she have been legal" and he said "yes". Thus this young lady was robed of her finish time because of a matter of a few inches. How does this make her a better runner or keep others from running their best. Why does this frivolous rule exist other than an official being able to effect the outcome of a foot race? WE need to get together and ask each of our region reps to the GHSA to get the rules changed to match that of the USTA and the NHSF.
11/07/2016 9:08:45 PM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 490
@cmarett so the ruling is that the hair band, worn on her wrist was "jewelry"? Was she warned about this at the start? Did you protest and did the jury of appeals uphold the DQ?
@cmarett so the ruling is that the hair band, worn on her wrist was "jewelry"? Was she warned about this at the start? Did you protest and did the jury of appeals uphold the DQ?
11/07/2016 9:18:48 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 155
@crossfan2861 That is correct. She was not warned individually. However the meet officials said that an announcement was made at the start of each race. I equate that to a frequent flyer listening to the flight attendant, been there heard that so I am focusing on what I have to do. Did I protest? OH HECK YEAH! I even asked the GHSA director how to file a formal protest and he said it would do no good because the ruling would not be changed. I then found out that it did not cost the team a spot and realized that a change in the rule is the only thing that will be fair to all runners
@crossfan2861
That is correct. She was not warned individually. However the meet officials said that an announcement was made at the start of each race. I equate that to a frequent flyer listening to the flight attendant, been there heard that so I am focusing on what I have to do.
Did I protest? OH HECK YEAH! I even asked the GHSA director how to file a formal protest and he said it would do no good because the ruling would not be changed. I then found out that it did not cost the team a spot and realized that a change in the rule is the only thing that will be fair to all runners
11/08/2016 5:21:59 AM
Coach
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 698
[quote=cmarett]...realized that a change in the rule is the only thing that will be fair to all runners[/quote] @cmarett Sorry about your experience here. These sad situations are why the NFHS as a whole did do away with the jewelry rule. It is mind-boggling that the GHSA insists on enforcing these complex and unnecessary rules, especially when the primary governing body, the NHFS, no longer has them. It is liberating to now be in a league that has no jewelry rules.
cmarett wrote:
...realized that a change in the rule is the only thing that will be fair to all runners


@cmarett Sorry about your experience here. These sad situations are why the NFHS as a whole did do away with the jewelry rule. It is mind-boggling that the GHSA insists on enforcing these complex and unnecessary rules, especially when the primary governing body, the NHFS, no longer has them. It is liberating to now be in a league that has no jewelry rules.
11/08/2016 7:22:29 AM
Coach
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 93
I know they tried to stop my team because they did not having "matching" spandex. Their argument was they had different logos (no joke, one had an under armour logo that was within regulations and one did not because it was a different company) and one was longer. They argued that made them different styles. I explained to the lady that they were all the single solid color and each logo was within expectations.
I know they tried to stop my team because they did not having "matching" spandex. Their argument was they had different logos (no joke, one had an under armour logo that was within regulations and one did not because it was a different company) and one was longer. They argued that made them different styles. I explained to the lady that they were all the single solid color and each logo was within expectations.
11/08/2016 10:03:16 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 80
The obvious problem with all of these instances is that none of the DQ's involved a competitive advantage. Obviously uniforms need to be worn so we can tell which team a kid is on. The uniform part of the outfit (jersey and shorts) should at least appear to be the same for all runners but we start to have unforced errors when we get so detail oriented. All of these issues should be referred to a standard of competitive advantage. On a track relay when two runners have short length spandex, one wears full length tights, and one is a distance kid who is a leg on the 4x4 and has on distance shorts is that okay? Does it create a competitive advantage? No. Then it should be fine. If one pole vaulter for a school has on spandex and the other doesn't is that okay? Competitive advantage? No. Then it should be okay. A cross country runner wears a necklace, head band that slips down, ribbon in their hair, extra hair tie on their wrist, is that okay? Does it create a competitive advantage? No. Then it should be okay. By not adopting the National Federation rule the GHSA is bringing problems on itself that don't affect the outcome of a meet. It's just an unforced error.
The obvious problem with all of these instances is that none of the DQ's involved a competitive advantage. Obviously uniforms need to be worn so we can tell which team a kid is on. The uniform part of the outfit (jersey and shorts) should at least appear to be the same for all runners but we start to have unforced errors when we get so detail oriented. All of these issues should be referred to a standard of competitive advantage. On a track relay when two runners have short length spandex, one wears full length tights, and one is a distance kid who is a leg on the 4x4 and has on distance shorts is that okay? Does it create a competitive advantage? No. Then it should be fine. If one pole vaulter for a school has on spandex and the other doesn't is that okay? Competitive advantage? No. Then it should be okay. A cross country runner wears a necklace, head band that slips down, ribbon in their hair, extra hair tie on their wrist, is that okay? Does it create a competitive advantage? No. Then it should be okay. By not adopting the National Federation rule the GHSA is bringing problems on itself that don't affect the outcome of a meet. It's just an unforced error.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.