Private vs Public
11/09/2013 10:56:54 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 81
@mbuckler No disrespect, but, a tired argument. We agreed months ago that there was no decided advantage in cross country when comparing public and private schools.. Success is a function of volume of participation, quality of coaching, and training.. Just look at the All-Class Rankings.
@mbuckler
No disrespect, but, a tired argument. We agreed months ago that there was no decided advantage in cross country when comparing public and private schools.. Success is a function of volume of participation, quality of coaching, and training.. Just look at the All-Class Rankings.
11/10/2013 8:36:08 AM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
"We agreed months ago that there was no decided advantage in cross country when comparing public and private schools" Sorry, I may be late to this discussion. I am not certain I agree. It is all about the available talent pool. Just look at the podium at state and list the number of private vs public schools. Where the talent pool has greater restrictions you see more private schools than public. However, when you get to the larger classifications, the pool is expanded to allow for the public schools to pull from a greater number of kids. A public county school must draw talent from only the citizens that live within a specific distance from the school. The public schools will seek out and confirm a student lives within the correct district. If not, the student must enroll elsewhere. A private school (regardless of size) can draw talent without any border restrictions. The talent pool is only limited by the resources of the parent/school and willingness to commute daily. If the school is in Forsyth County, a student can still attend and run for the private school even if they drive from Stone Mountain each day. How is this not an advantage?
"We agreed months ago that there was no decided advantage in cross country when comparing public and private schools"

Sorry, I may be late to this discussion. I am not certain I agree. It is all about the available talent pool. Just look at the podium at state and list the number of private vs public schools. Where the talent pool has greater restrictions you see more private schools than public. However, when you get to the larger classifications, the pool is expanded to allow for the public schools to pull from a greater number of kids.

A public county school must draw talent from only the citizens that live within a specific distance from the school. The public schools will seek out and confirm a student lives within the correct district. If not, the student must enroll elsewhere.

A private school (regardless of size) can draw talent without any border restrictions. The talent pool is only limited by the resources of the parent/school and willingness to commute daily. If the school is in Forsyth County, a student can still attend and run for the private school even if they drive from Stone Mountain each day.

How is this not an advantage?
11/10/2013 8:40:14 AM
Coach
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 349
@vg0va3 there are 100 ways your average small public XC squad could improve it's results. Why not focus on them, vice complaining about 1 possible disadvantage?
@vg0va3
there are 100 ways your average small public XC squad could improve it's results. Why not focus on them, vice complaining about 1 possible disadvantage?
11/10/2013 9:03:47 AM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@COACHBILLY Thank you for sharing. You are correct. A public school could change training techniques, provide dietary, breathing and recovery coaching. I am sure there are many more areas of improvement. But all of the improvements would only be on a the talent pool of that specific district. Could you address the concern I placed into the discussion? As I see it, that one issue is the elephant in the room that hasnt been answered. Just ezplain why small public schools rarely place on the state podiums? Feel free to share the 100 tips.
@COACHBILLY

Thank you for sharing. You are correct. A public school could change training techniques, provide dietary, breathing and recovery coaching. I am sure there are many more areas of improvement. But all of the improvements would only be on a the talent pool of that specific district.

Could you address the concern I placed into the discussion? As I see it, that one issue is the elephant in the room that hasnt been answered. Just ezplain why small public schools rarely place on the state podiums?

Feel free to share the 100 tips.
11/10/2013 9:29:27 AM
Power User
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 664
Most of the privates "play up" to give them more competition. Marist I believe could compete in AA but chooses AAAA (although they'd probably prefer AAA for XC but their other sports come into play). Private schools as a general rule have quality coaches and better parental support....that's a recipe that breeds success in any setting. Although I rarely agree with anything Coach Billy says (or at least the way he says it!), I agree here: this is an area where it's best not to complain but instead figure out what your school/system can do to make it better, rather than try to segregate from the high achievers. That's called lowering the bar and I for one am glad we have the ultra-successful public AND private schools to look up to.
Most of the privates "play up" to give them more competition. Marist I believe could compete in AA but chooses AAAA (although they'd probably prefer AAA for XC but their other sports come into play).

Private schools as a general rule have quality coaches and better parental support....that's a recipe that breeds success in any setting.

Although I rarely agree with anything Coach Billy says (or at least the way he says it!), I agree here: this is an area where it's best not to complain but instead figure out what your school/system can do to make it better, rather than try to segregate from the high achievers. That's called lowering the bar and I for one am glad we have the ultra-successful public AND private schools to look up to.
11/10/2013 9:35:46 AM
Coach
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 349
@vg0va3 It's not really an elephant in the room - as I've addressed the issue before. Not gonna go there again, as my opinion was - to put it mildly - not well received. :-D I'd love to have a legit discussion on training tips, but I know from experience this is not the place to have a fruitful discussion on that. Based on past experience, it'd likely distingrate to a topic about 100 excuses, vice 100 tips..
@vg0va3
It's not really an elephant in the room - as I've addressed the issue before. Not gonna go there again, as my opinion was - to put it mildly - not well received.

I'd love to have a legit discussion on training tips, but I know from experience this is not the place to have a fruitful discussion on that. Based on past experience, it'd likely distingrate to a topic about 100 excuses, vice 100 tips..
11/10/2013 9:36:56 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 487
Private schools do better because they have student populations made up of highly driven, achievement oriented kids / parents and because they typically get superior coaching. Any group of reasonably talented, motivated, well coached kids has a chance to succeed. Having an army of kids to choose from in the genetic pool certainly helps, but it only takes 5 kids to score. Look at Lagrange's boys. They only have 20 kids on their boy's team and managed to put 4 athletes in the top 10 yesterday at state and gave Marist, who has a roster 3 times as large, tons of tradition and excellent coaching, a scare. Cross country offers more opportunity and the playing field is more equal than in many sports. A successful CC athlete doesn't have to be a physical freak of nature in terms of size like football or basketball. Check out your school's marching band and local recreational soccer league and you likely have the makings of a championship cross country team.
Private schools do better because they have student populations made up of highly driven, achievement oriented kids / parents and because they typically get superior coaching. Any group of reasonably talented, motivated, well coached kids has a chance to succeed. Having an army of kids to choose from in the genetic pool certainly helps, but it only takes 5 kids to score.

Look at Lagrange's boys. They only have 20 kids on their boy's team and managed to put 4 athletes in the top 10 yesterday at state and gave Marist, who has a roster 3 times as large, tons of tradition and excellent coaching, a scare.

Cross country offers more opportunity and the playing field is more equal than in many sports. A successful CC athlete doesn't have to be a physical freak of nature in terms of size like football or basketball. Check out your school's marching band and local recreational soccer league and you likely have the makings of a championship cross country team.
11/10/2013 2:11:38 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@crossfan2861 "Private schools do better because they have student populations made up of highly driven, achievement oriented kids / parents and because they typically get superior coaching." As a public school participant, I find your assertion insulting. Both student populations are made up of highly driven, gifted, achievement oriented kids. The difference is that one set attends a school that the kids parents (not the kids) are willing to pay tuition while the other is paid for via tax dollars from the community. I have seen as many people fail from both types of schools. Do not think that kids from private school are somehow superior to their counter parts in public school. Back to the the question: If the ability of a private school to bring students from far away is a non-issue (aka recruiting) because it has no impact on the quality of the team then why are public schools prohibited from doing the same? If this was a non-issue then why do we have a A private school classification?
@crossfan2861 "Private schools do better because they have student populations made up of highly driven, achievement oriented kids / parents and because they typically get superior coaching."

As a public school participant, I find your assertion insulting. Both student populations are made up of highly driven, gifted, achievement oriented kids. The difference is that one set attends a school that the kids parents (not the kids) are willing to pay tuition while the other is paid for via tax dollars from the community. I have seen as many people fail from both types of schools. Do not think that kids from private school are somehow superior to their counter parts in public school.

Back to the the question:

If the ability of a private school to bring students from far away is a non-issue (aka recruiting) because it has no impact on the quality of the team then why are public schools prohibited from doing the same?

If this was a non-issue then why do we have a A private school classification?
11/10/2013 3:05:55 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 81
@vg0va3 Public schools may be prohibited from " recruiting," but they do it all the time, most often unintentionally. There is a public school in my county with a strong CC program. I know for a fact that some of the kids on that team do not live in that school's district. Their parents even told me that they did not want their kids to go to the school in their district due to academics, environment, etc. They either used a relative's address, or established " residency" in that district using other means. The most extreme example of this was documented in the AJC several years ago with coach David Boyd at Milton High School (Boys Basketball).
@vg0va3
Public schools may be prohibited from " recruiting," but they do it all the time, most often unintentionally. There is a public school in my county with a strong CC program. I know for a fact that some of the kids on that team do not live in that school's district. Their parents even told me that they did not want their kids to go to the school in their district due to academics, environment, etc. They either used a relative's address, or established " residency" in that district using other means. The most extreme example of this was documented in the AJC several years ago with coach David Boyd at Milton High School (Boys Basketball).
11/10/2013 3:37:21 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@XCXpert I agree it goes on. I can point to schools in our area that have been accused of recruiting from outside the area and stacking of a team. In fact, I have seen some parents employed to bring in an athlete. For public schools It is also called cheating and is prohibited. Yet, smaller public schools must compete with private schools that are able to stack their teams with excellent athletes from different regions and it is looked upon differently? I am going back to apples and oranges point. If you were to allow some of the smaller schools to consolidate talent from within their regions then you would have apples and apples. Otherwise, you have teams competing on the same field from different rule books.
@XCXpert

I agree it goes on.

I can point to schools in our area that have been accused of recruiting from outside the area and stacking of a team. In fact, I have seen some parents employed to bring in an athlete.

For public schools It is also called cheating and is prohibited. Yet, smaller public schools must compete with private schools that are able to stack their teams with excellent athletes from different regions and it is looked upon differently?

I am going back to apples and oranges point.

If you were to allow some of the smaller schools to consolidate talent from within their regions then you would have apples and apples. Otherwise, you have teams competing on the same field from different rule books.
11/10/2013 3:55:34 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 81
@vg0va3 My friends whose kids go to schools outside their district honestly do not think they are cheating. One of them is actually on the School Board. Once again, if you look at the big picture, you will see that there is no decided advantage in cross country. Check the All-Class times and statistics. The public schools more than hold their own.
@vg0va3
My friends whose kids go to schools outside their district honestly do not think they are cheating. One of them is actually on the School Board. Once again, if you look at the big picture, you will see that there is no decided advantage in cross country. Check the All-Class times and statistics. The public schools more than hold their own.
11/10/2013 4:22:43 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@XCXpert Great idea! As you will see both 2A and 3A are dominated by private schools [i](please correct me if I mislabel a school as private/public)[/i]. AA Boys is 75% Private and took 1st, 2nd & 4th; AA Girls 75% Private and took 1st, 2nd & 3rd AAA Boys is 75% Private and took 1st, 3rd & 4th; AAA Girls is 50% Private and took 1st & 2nd AAAA Boys is 25% Private and took 1st; AAAA Girls is 25% Private and took 1st The first classification to have a 1st place team other than a Private School was 5A. AAAAA Boys 0% Private; AAAAA Girls 0% Private AAAAAA Boys 0% Private; AAAAAAA Girls 0% Private RESULTS: [b]AA Boys [/b] 1st- Westminster [b](Private) [/b] 2nd- Wesleyan [b](Private)[/b] 3rd- Bleckley County (Public) 4th- Lovett [b](Private)[/b] [b]AA Girls[/b] 1st- Wesleyan [b](Private)[/b] 2nd- Westminster [b](Private)[/b] 3rd- Lovett [b](Private)[/b] 4th- Bleckley County (Public) [b]AAA Boys[/b] 1st- St. Pius X [b](Private)[/b] 2nd- North Hall (Public) 3rd- Woodward Academy [b](Private)[/b] 4th- Blessed Trinity [b](Private)[/b] [b]AAA Girls[/b] 1st- Blessed Trinity [b](Private)[/b] 2nd- St. Pius X [b](Private)[/b] 3rd- White County (Public) 4th- North Oconee (Public) [b]AAAA Boys[/b] 1st- Marist [b](Private)[/b] 2nd- Lagrange (Public) 3rd- Pickens (Public) 4th- Perry (Public) [b] AAAA Girls[/b] 1st- Marist [b](Private)[/b] 2nd- Heritage Catoosa (Public) 3rd- Chestatee (Public) 4th- Eagles Landing (Public) [b]AAAAA Boys[/b] 1st- Flowery Branch (Public) 2nd- Clarkston (Public) 3rd- Northview (Public) 4th- Lakeside,Evans (Public) [b]AAAAA Girls[/b] 1st- Northview (Public) 2nd- Lakeside, Evans (Public) 3rd- Dunwoody (Public) 4th- Lakeside, Dekalb (Public) [b] AAAAAA[/b] 1st- Brookwood (Public) 2nd- Peachtree Ridge (Public) 3rd- Harrison (Public) 4th- Collins Hill (Public)
@XCXpert

Great idea!

As you will see both 2A and 3A are dominated by private schools (please correct me if I mislabel a school as private/public).

AA Boys is 75% Private and took 1st, 2nd & 4th; AA Girls 75% Private and took 1st, 2nd & 3rd
AAA Boys is 75% Private and took 1st, 3rd & 4th; AAA Girls is 50% Private and took 1st & 2nd
AAAA Boys is 25% Private and took 1st; AAAA Girls is 25% Private and took 1st

The first classification to have a 1st place team other than a Private School was 5A.

AAAAA Boys 0% Private; AAAAA Girls 0% Private
AAAAAA Boys 0% Private; AAAAAAA Girls 0% Private

RESULTS:

AA Boys

1st- Westminster (Private)
2nd- Wesleyan (Private)
3rd- Bleckley County (Public)
4th- Lovett (Private)

AA Girls
1st- Wesleyan (Private)
2nd- Westminster (Private)
3rd- Lovett (Private)
4th- Bleckley County (Public)

AAA Boys
1st- St. Pius X (Private)
2nd- North Hall (Public)
3rd- Woodward Academy (Private)
4th- Blessed Trinity (Private)

AAA Girls
1st- Blessed Trinity (Private)
2nd- St. Pius X (Private)
3rd- White County (Public)
4th- North Oconee (Public)

AAAA Boys
1st- Marist (Private)
2nd- Lagrange (Public)
3rd- Pickens (Public)
4th- Perry (Public)

AAAA Girls

1st- Marist (Private)
2nd- Heritage Catoosa (Public)
3rd- Chestatee (Public)
4th- Eagles Landing (Public)

AAAAA Boys
1st- Flowery Branch (Public)
2nd- Clarkston (Public)
3rd- Northview (Public)
4th- Lakeside,Evans (Public)

AAAAA Girls
1st- Northview (Public)
2nd- Lakeside, Evans (Public)
3rd- Dunwoody (Public)
4th- Lakeside, Dekalb (Public)

AAAAAA

1st- Brookwood (Public)
2nd- Peachtree Ridge (Public)
3rd- Harrison (Public)
4th- Collins Hill (Public)
11/10/2013 4:42:04 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 81
@vg0va3 You have made some excellent points, and I respect your opinion. Let me just say, in closing, that the rule book regarding public vs. private schools has very little bearing on success in cross country. Training, dedication, and hard work will allow for a child from almost any background to compete at a high level. You can technically take 10 kids off the street, outfit them in running shoes, and train them to compete (a friend of mine, who is a coach, actually did this, and won a title!). In so many other sports, you need superior athletic talent immediately, facilities, and money in general to win. I am certainly not suggesting that cross country kids are not superior athletes. The beautiful thing is that so many of them are self-made athletes. As I have said in the past, when it comes to sports, cross country is the great equalizer.
@vg0va3
You have made some excellent points, and I respect your opinion. Let me just say, in closing, that the rule book regarding public vs. private schools has very little bearing on success in cross country. Training, dedication, and hard work will allow for a child from almost any background to compete at a high level. You can technically take 10 kids off the street, outfit them in running shoes, and train them to compete (a friend of mine, who is a coach, actually did this, and won a title!). In so many other sports, you need superior athletic talent immediately, facilities, and money in general to win. I am certainly not suggesting that cross country kids are not superior athletes. The beautiful thing is that so many of them are self-made athletes. As I have said in the past, when it comes to sports, cross country is the great equalizer.
11/10/2013 5:00:18 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@XCXpert Thank you for the discussion. I will close with this final comment. This is truly a problem and can be ignored by the coaches. But at some point GHSA is going to realize that private schools competing with small public schools is not different from an AAU basketball team playing small high school teams. Same rule book. Same court. But very different [b]collection[/b] of athletes. If this is to be a team game then the teams must be created following the same rules. This has been a great season and I look forward to track. Good day.
@XCXpert

Thank you for the discussion. I will close with this final comment.

This is truly a problem and can be ignored by the coaches. But at some point GHSA is going to realize that private schools competing with small public schools is not different from an AAU basketball team playing small high school teams. Same rule book. Same court. But very different collection of athletes. If this is to be a team game then the teams must be created following the same rules.

This has been a great season and I look forward to track.

Good day.
11/10/2013 6:42:16 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Not being smart but I assume you know that the reason no private school placed in the top 4 in 5A or 6A yesterday is because there are no private schools in those 2 classes. Private schools did win every class that they are a part of.
Not being smart but I assume you know that the reason no private school placed in the top 4 in 5A or 6A yesterday is because there are no private schools in those 2 classes. Private schools did win every class that they are a part of.
11/10/2013 7:32:03 PM
User
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
@emkc I guess your addressing me with that question. Yes, I am aware. In fact, the best average team times were posted by two AAA schools. 1 private 1 public. I would suggest that if you had all private schools compete in AAAAAAA you would still see a large number of them on the podium. Which goes to my point that smaller public schools simply can not expect to beat a private school for a state championship due to the nature the various teams are constructed.
@emkc

I guess your addressing me with that question.

Yes, I am aware. In fact, the best average team times were posted by two AAA schools. 1 private 1 public.

I would suggest that if you had all private schools compete in AAAAAAA you would still see a large number of them on the podium. Which goes to my point that smaller public schools simply can not expect to beat a private school for a state championship due to the nature the various teams are constructed.
11/10/2013 7:53:07 PM
User
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 81
@vg0va3 It is not how they are constructed, it is how they are coached and trained. Look at North Hall. They are consistently good because they are well-coached, and they have built a great program. St. Pius pulled a kid off the marching band and made him into a perennial champion. They did not recruit him from another area, they just happen to have a tremendous coach and program that knows how to motivate kids. My point is to look at the big picture. If private schools draw from a talent pool that is similar to the large public schools, then why are there only four in the top 20 All-Class? And we cannot compare the composition of a basketball team to a cross country team. That is truly like comparing apples to oranges. Now this thread has come full circle!
@vg0va3
It is not how they are constructed, it is how they are coached and trained. Look at North Hall. They are consistently good because they are well-coached, and they have built a great program. St. Pius pulled a kid off the marching band and made him into a perennial champion. They did not recruit him from another area, they just happen to have a tremendous coach and program that knows how to motivate kids. My point is to look at the big picture. If private schools draw from a talent pool that is similar to the large public schools, then why are there only four in the top 20 All-Class? And we cannot compare the composition of a basketball team to a cross country team. That is truly like comparing apples to oranges. Now this thread has come full circle!
11/10/2013 7:54:03 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 94
I agree with you 100 percent. If you take the top private schools in A and AA,you would have to go up at least 2 classes to find a public school that matches up to them time wise. For AA girls you have to go up more than 2 classes.
I agree with you 100 percent. If you take the top private schools in A and AA,you would have to go up at least 2 classes to find a public school that matches up to them time wise. For AA girls you have to go up more than 2 classes.
11/10/2013 8:01:10 PM
Coach
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 94
I agree with you 100 percent that it is hard for a small public school to compete with a private school of comparable size. If you take the top private schools in A and AA,you would have to go up at least 2 classes to find a public school that matches up to them time wise. For AA girls you have to go up more than 2 classes.
I agree with you 100 percent that it is hard for a small public school to compete with a private school of comparable size. If you take the top private schools in A and AA,you would have to go up at least 2 classes to find a public school that matches up to them time wise. For AA girls you have to go up more than 2 classes.
11/10/2013 8:25:02 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 601
The statistics are always very compelling until you recognize the most basic fact. Private schools recruit their entire student body for academics and very few make significant efforts to stack the athletic teams at the same time, and none of them will do that for Cross Country. The entire operating budget of most private schools comes from tuition and no one makes any money from Cross Country, so what would be the incentive to recruit kids to make a successful team when it is much easier to support the effort by employing a quality coach who can take who he has and make them as good as they can be. The statistic that shows that those smaller schools are not so much disadvantaged but rather disinterested is that even with no competition from the class A Privates, there were only 11 girls teams and 15 boys teams competing in those divisions. Those that were successful yesterday are great examples for their counterparts. Towns and GMC train hard and actively compete throughout the season and like everyone, their kids enjoyed the fruits of their labors on the victory stand. Is there recruiting in HS athletics? Certainly but it is not a private/public issue. Do private schools enjoy some advantages that might them more successful in athletics? Yes, but the actual differences are seldom cited by those claiming disadvantage. To be offended by the suggestion that the student populations are different is to ignore the basic facts. The parents who are willing to pay to send their children to privates schools do for the very fact that they will have access to certain academic advantages and be associating in much greater concentrations with students whose families share their interest in education. There are awesome kids at every school, as well as unmotivated ones, but the percentages are quite disparate between private and public school. To me the greatest advantage private schools enjoy is that a much larger percentage of their student body is eligible to contribute to the their athletic programs all the time. This affects some sports more than others and Cross Country much less than most. Compulsory participation policies and participation levels at privates in general are likely why XC has such stats as listed above, but the best teams are the products of great training plans executed by dedicated coaches, not their private/public status. tp
The statistics are always very compelling until you recognize the most basic fact. Private schools recruit their entire student body for academics and very few make significant efforts to stack the athletic teams at the same time, and none of them will do that for Cross Country. The entire operating budget of most private schools comes from tuition and no one makes any money from Cross Country, so what would be the incentive to recruit kids to make a successful team when it is much easier to support the effort by employing a quality coach who can take who he has and make them as good as they can be. The statistic that shows that those smaller schools are not so much disadvantaged but rather disinterested is that even with no competition from the class A Privates, there were only 11 girls teams and 15 boys teams competing in those divisions. Those that were successful yesterday are great examples for their counterparts. Towns and GMC train hard and actively compete throughout the season and like everyone, their kids enjoyed the fruits of their labors on the victory stand.

Is there recruiting in HS athletics? Certainly but it is not a private/public issue. Do private schools enjoy some advantages that might them more successful in athletics? Yes, but the actual differences are seldom cited by those claiming disadvantage. To be offended by the suggestion that the student populations are different is to ignore the basic facts. The parents who are willing to pay to send their children to privates schools do for the very fact that they will have access to certain academic advantages and be associating in much greater concentrations with students whose families share their interest in education. There are awesome kids at every school, as well as unmotivated ones, but the percentages are quite disparate between private and public school. To me the greatest advantage private schools enjoy is that a much larger percentage of their student body is eligible to contribute to the their athletic programs all the time. This affects some sports more than others and Cross Country much less than most. Compulsory participation policies and participation levels at privates in general are likely why XC has such stats as listed above, but the best teams are the products of great training plans executed by dedicated coaches, not their private/public status.
tp

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.