"Closing the course" (i.e., pulling runners off the course...)
11/12/2012 4:53:03 PM
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Does anyone (coach, runner, parent) actually object to a KNOWN-AT-SEASON'S-START, PUBLISHED BY GHSA minimum performance standard for the State Cross Country Championship? One of the things I LOVE about this wonderful sport is young people running themselves into shape via participation in XC. At the Blast-Off Meet or Eastover Invitational - let 'em all run and I will be there applauding and encouraging the last runner. But at the State Meet, can't we just say the course is closed after some generous threshhold? You gotta sidestitch? You feel sick? Listen - lots of good/great runners sometimes don't finish races. Coach to runner (at the beginning of fall practice, if not in the summer): "We are excited about our team's prospects to qualify in region this year. Assuming you make varsity, our team will get a chance to go to Berry :^) and run in the State Championship. But please understand there is a minimum performance standard. If for one reason or the other you can't finish the race in time, a nice meet official will ask you to come off the course and your will recieve a DNF in the official results."
Does anyone (coach, runner, parent) actually object to a KNOWN-AT-SEASON'S-START, PUBLISHED BY GHSA minimum performance standard for the State Cross Country Championship?

One of the things I LOVE about this wonderful sport is young people running themselves into shape via participation in XC. At the Blast-Off Meet or Eastover Invitational - let 'em all run and I will be there applauding and encouraging the last runner.

But at the State Meet, can't we just say the course is closed after some generous threshhold? You gotta sidestitch? You feel sick? Listen - lots of good/great runners sometimes don't finish races.

Coach to runner (at the beginning of fall practice, if not in the summer): "We are excited about our team's prospects to qualify in region this year. Assuming you make varsity, our team will get a chance to go to Berry :^) and run in the State Championship. But please understand there is a minimum performance standard. If for one reason or the other you can't finish the race in time, a nice meet official will ask you to come off the course and your will recieve a DNF in the official results."
11/12/2012 5:29:26 PM
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^^^^ (This is within the context of trying to compress times between races and to also make them predictable, so as to include all classifications at the same meet. Add my voice to the many that have said that the Class A mess was a travesty this year.)^^^^^
^^^^ (This is within the context of trying to compress times between races and to also make them predictable, so as to include all classifications at the same meet. Add my voice to the many that have said that the Class A mess was a travesty this year.)^^^^^
11/12/2012 10:01:16 PM
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@friendofthedevil I'd argue that the issue is having super slow teams being allowed to run in the state meet. Its the STATE meet. Qualifying 4 teams per region, regardless of accomplish/ability doesn't work in this sport. In some regions, all you had to do was have 5 runners finish the region race and your ticket to state got punched. I'll continue to advocate for 2 teams per region as auto qualifiers and the balance of the field being filled out with "at large" bids. A nice compromise between getting state wide representation and treating the state meet as something that must be earned through performance. Certainly there is plenty of precedent for yanking runners. I got yanked in an SEC indoor 5K back in the dark ages. The rule was, you get lapped and you get yanked. Think I went through 2 miles around 9:20 and got lapped and yanked about 30 seconds later. It was soul crushing, but I survived the psychological scars. Barely!
@friendofthedevil I'd argue that the issue is having super slow teams being allowed to run in the state meet. Its the STATE meet. Qualifying 4 teams per region, regardless of accomplish/ability doesn't work in this sport. In some regions, all you had to do was have 5 runners finish the region race and your ticket to state got punched. I'll continue to advocate for 2 teams per region as auto qualifiers and the balance of the field being filled out with "at large" bids. A nice compromise between getting state wide representation and treating the state meet as something that must be earned through performance.

Certainly there is plenty of precedent for yanking runners. I got yanked in an SEC indoor 5K back in the dark ages. The rule was, you get lapped and you get yanked. Think I went through 2 miles around 9:20 and got lapped and yanked about 30 seconds later. It was soul crushing, but I survived the psychological scars. Barely!
11/12/2012 10:08:19 PM
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There were over 100 girls than ran over 30 minutes Saturday. I'm thankful they're participating and I believe there is room for everybody in XC (which is what makes it such a great sport). However, I don't think the State meet is a place for ladies that can't break 30 minutes for a 5k.
There were over 100 girls than ran over 30 minutes Saturday. I'm thankful they're participating and I believe there is room for everybody in XC (which is what makes it such a great sport). However, I don't think the State meet is a place for ladies that can't break 30 minutes for a 5k.
11/12/2012 11:15:09 PM
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A young lady did get lapped in the AAAA race. I have never seen that before in a 2 lap XC race.
A young lady did get lapped in the AAAA race. I have never seen that before in a 2 lap XC race.
11/13/2012 1:08:36 PM
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I observered the same lady but actually clapped for her courage, It didn't halt the next race for the guys, it was close but no major delay. I think that if they qualified let them run. Every year there will be weaker regions and stronger regions. Have anyone looked at the fact that 32 teams is a lot, when I competed in Florida we only qualified 16 teams. I have been pulled from a race but that was the rules you get lapped you step off the track but let,s realize that this is for the kids let them run. Come on man.
I observered the same lady but actually clapped for her courage, It didn't halt the next race for the guys, it was close but no major delay. I think that if they qualified let them run. Every year there will be weaker regions and stronger regions. Have anyone looked at the fact that 32 teams is a lot, when I competed in Florida we only qualified 16 teams. I have been pulled from a race but that was the rules you get lapped you step off the track but let,s realize that this is for the kids let them run. Come on man.
11/13/2012 1:14:13 PM
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@ianedwards19 I actually cheered because that young lady is someones' child and I looked at my history My first race in midle school I lost to 3 girls. by the tenth grade, I had my first two state titles..... She qualified for state and should applauded for not quitting....I tell my runners that the slower kids actually work the hardest....You either work hard during the off season an practice or die in the races. Now I believe in competition and winning is important but I feel that attacking children that are willing to run a 5k should not be attacked. The girl may be big but her heart was two times as big.
@ianedwards19 I actually cheered because that young lady is someones' child and I looked at my history My first race in midle school I lost to 3 girls. by the tenth grade, I had my first two state titles..... She qualified for state and should applauded for not quitting....I tell my runners that the slower kids actually work the hardest....You either work hard during the off season an practice or die in the races. Now I believe in competition and winning is important but I feel that attacking children that are willing to run a 5k should not be attacked. The girl may be big but her heart was two times as big.
11/13/2012 1:41:50 PM
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^^^^ But per the original post, what if it was known all season that IF YOU MAKE IT TO STATE and don't hit a minimum performance standard, you will be pulled off? I am not saying don't try and I am not saying don't participate even if you think you might not meet the standard, but come in knowing that you will be pulled off if you don't. At the State Championship, I don't see how that is any kind of horrible thing.^^^^ (Also check out the flrunners.com meet. Jason keeps to a [b][u]very[/u][/b] aggressive race schedule that includes a graduated scale for minimum finish times.)
^^^^ But per the original post, what if it was known all season that IF YOU MAKE IT TO STATE and don't hit a minimum performance standard, you will be pulled off? I am not saying don't try and I am not saying don't participate even if you think you might not meet the standard, but come in knowing that you will be pulled off if you don't. At the State Championship, I don't see how that is any kind of horrible thing.^^^^

(Also check out the flrunners.com meet. Jason keeps to a very aggressive race schedule that includes a graduated scale for minimum finish times.)
11/13/2012 1:52:13 PM
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If it is the rule then that is cool. I don't like pulling runners but in track i believe they pull lapped runners. In Cross country set a standard and I would be cool with it. I just don't see a need for pulling runners since i though the meet flowed very well. I would not change the venue or course
If it is the rule then that is cool. I don't like pulling runners but in track i believe they pull lapped runners. In Cross country set a standard and I would be cool with it. I just don't see a need for pulling runners since i though the meet flowed very well. I would not change the venue or course
11/13/2012 2:03:19 PM
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@ianedwards19 I am very much in agreement with Mr. Young. This is not the venue for personal attacks on athletes who qualify to participate under the established rules, try hard and behave appropriately. Granted, being lapped is a performance issue sometimes needing to be removed from the course to avoid being a hazard to faster athletes. Rules can effectively address this as well as minimum performance standards. Nonetheless, I encourage you to practice civility in your discourse. We see lots of interns your age at the Wall Street firm that occupies much of my day-time hours. A lack of effective communication skills can be a limiter. At our fall sports banquet, the only athlete who received a standing ovation was an 8th grader -- not our All-State podium finishers or record setters, but a first time runner who looks more like the football player in Blind Side than a gazelle, slightly learning disabled, but a great kid. He worked harder than everyone else and by the end of the season had the opportunity to cheer on the team mates who were finishing behind him.
@ianedwards19 I am very much in agreement with Mr. Young. This is not the venue for personal attacks on athletes who qualify to participate under the established rules, try hard and behave appropriately. Granted, being lapped is a performance issue sometimes needing to be removed from the course to avoid being a hazard to faster athletes. Rules can effectively address this as well as minimum performance standards. Nonetheless, I encourage you to practice civility in your discourse. We see lots of interns your age at the Wall Street firm that occupies much of my day-time hours. A lack of effective communication skills can be a limiter.

At our fall sports banquet, the only athlete who received a standing ovation was an 8th grader -- not our All-State podium finishers or record setters, but a first time runner who looks more like the football player in Blind Side than a gazelle, slightly learning disabled, but a great kid. He worked harder than everyone else and by the end of the season had the opportunity to cheer on the team mates who were finishing behind him.
11/13/2012 2:20:05 PM
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[quote=ianedwards19]That fat girl getting lapped was the most pathetic thing I ever seen. She should not have been allowed to particiate in the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP. And people were cheering for her -_-[/quote] @ianedwards19 What I find pathetic is YOUR POST. Did it make you feel like a big man to make fun of a teenage girl on a public forum? And my reply has nothing to do with who should or shouldn't run in the state meet. It is just about your name calling.
ianedwards19 wrote:
That fat girl getting lapped was the most pathetic thing I ever seen. She should not have been allowed to particiate in the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP.

And people were cheering for her -_-


@ianedwards19

What I find pathetic is YOUR POST. Did it make you feel like a big man to make fun of a teenage girl on a public forum?

And my reply has nothing to do with who should or shouldn't run in the state meet. It is just about your name calling.
11/13/2012 2:39:10 PM
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I would object to it, because if I was one of these kids or the parent of one of these kids, a member of a team who had qualified under the GHSA rules of regional qualifying, and had traveled to the meet I would expect to be allowed to finish or be allowed to see my kid finish the race regardless of time. That runner's team, and thus that runner, "earned" the right to be there and should be allowed to finish just as those in the top 10 or 20 are allowed to finish. The issue is not with individual runners, but with the regional qualifying process as it is currently set up which allows too many teams from too many small regional meets to qualify. I think it is ridiculous that, for example, a region with eight teams can qualify four. IMO there should be larger regions with fewer classes that have more teams and individuals competing for those coveted spots on the starting line at the state meet. Is there any reason that XC MUST follow the same classification rules and region rules as other sports? What works for a football or softball or soccer playoff format may not be suitable for XC.
I would object to it, because if I was one of these kids or the parent of one of these kids, a member of a team who had qualified under the GHSA rules of regional qualifying, and had traveled to the meet I would expect to be allowed to finish or be allowed to see my kid finish the race regardless of time. That runner's team, and thus that runner, "earned" the right to be there and should be allowed to finish just as those in the top 10 or 20 are allowed to finish. The issue is not with individual runners, but with the regional qualifying process as it is currently set up which allows too many teams from too many small regional meets to qualify. I think it is ridiculous that, for example, a region with eight teams can qualify four. IMO there should be larger regions with fewer classes that have more teams and individuals competing for those coveted spots on the starting line at the state meet. Is there any reason that XC MUST follow the same classification rules and region rules as other sports? What works for a football or softball or soccer playoff format may not be suitable for XC.
11/13/2012 3:03:17 PM
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@fpittman Great post Frank. If you look at Let's Run this is not the first forum Mr Edwards has been lit into for things he has said.
@fpittman Great post Frank. If you look at Let's Run this is not the first forum Mr Edwards has been lit into for things he has said.
11/13/2012 3:25:58 PM
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There is no guarantee that she was even the beneficiary of a weak region. She might have been on one of the best team, just #7 for her school. Any school can have that wide a spread. In 1998 and 1999 we had the fastest girl at Carrollton and her classmate and good friend struggled to break 40 min. Both enjoyed different triumphs of Cross Country. tp
There is no guarantee that she was even the beneficiary of a weak region. She might have been on one of the best team, just #7 for her school. Any school can have that wide a spread. In 1998 and 1999 we had the fastest girl at Carrollton and her classmate and good friend struggled to break 40 min. Both enjoyed different triumphs of Cross Country.
tp
11/13/2012 4:05:33 PM
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Tpee is correct in his supposition. However, if you do some research (since this girl's region has not posted results from the region meet) and run a virtual meet, you will find the she is from a weak region (#25 runner avg. 30 minutes). Looking more closely, you'll find the number 1 runner in the region is the only girl on her school's XC team. 1 other school has no girl runners. The girl in question was the 8th runner on a 8 girl team. She was probably a sub for an injured teammate, but even then their #5 and #6 season's bests were 37 minutes.
Tpee is correct in his supposition. However, if you do some research (since this girl's region has not posted results from the region meet) and run a virtual meet, you will find the she is from a weak region (#25 runner avg. 30 minutes). Looking more closely, you'll find the number 1 runner in the region is the only girl on her school's XC team. 1 other school has no girl runners. The girl in question was the 8th runner on a 8 girl team. She was probably a sub for an injured teammate, but even then their #5 and #6 season's bests were 37 minutes.

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