Negativity On This Discussion Board
09/16/2012 7:31:21 PM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2924
It needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away...
It needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away...
09/16/2012 7:40:50 PM
Coach
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
There once was a time when we did not have instant results of cross courtry meets. I am not as old as Brian Robinson but I do remember a time when you had to call other coaches and runners to get an idea of how other teams and individual runners were performing. I remember getting up early on a Sunday to see how other runners did through the AJC especially track when I was in high school. Also, cross country is not perfect...who cares if a course is short or long...it is about place anyways so everybody relax!
There once was a time when we did not have instant results of cross courtry meets. I am not as old as Brian Robinson but I do remember a time when you had to call other coaches and runners to get an idea of how other teams and individual runners were performing. I remember getting up early on a Sunday to see how other runners did through the AJC especially track when I was in high school. Also, cross country is not perfect...who cares if a course is short or long...it is about place anyways so everybody relax!
09/16/2012 8:12:00 PM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 121
@CoachDB I started coaching in 1981 and remember having to wait to get results in the mail or hang around for hours while everything was recorded and scored by hand. No computers or smart phones, how did we survive? Of course, even back then we knew which courses ran faster than others.
@CoachDB
I started coaching in 1981 and remember having to wait to get results in the mail or hang around for hours while everything was recorded and scored by hand. No computers or smart phones, how did we survive? Of course, even back then we knew which courses ran faster than others.
09/16/2012 11:35:11 PM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
Bad things happen. It is unfortunate that this occured to PT Timing the week after they described their fool proof system. In any case, this company does great work along with the webmaster (Fast Feet) and others and I have already secured PT Timing for next year's Double Dip. They are a great crew and I am confident that they only become better.
Bad things happen. It is unfortunate that this occured to PT Timing the week after they described their fool proof system. In any case, this company does great work along with the webmaster (Fast Feet) and others and I have already secured PT Timing for next year's Double Dip. They are a great crew and I am confident that they only become better.
09/17/2012 7:12:54 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
@gawebmaster Does that mean no bashing USATF for making Carrollton about .16 long?
@gawebmaster Does that mean no bashing USATF for making Carrollton about .16 long?
09/17/2012 7:18:35 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1047
@afxccoach Carrollton is not long, it was short in previous years. So is any other course that measures a 5k along the middle of the path. It is now measured correctly and that is why it is longer than it used to be. Anybody who measures a course using a Garmin is going to be off (I saw a few posts about that). Is this annoying because it runs slower now? Sure, but they are following the rules unlike so many "fast" courses. Does it make a difference at state? Absolutely not, so let it go.
@afxccoach

Carrollton is not long, it was short in previous years. So is any other course that measures a 5k along the middle of the path. It is now measured correctly and that is why it is longer than it used to be. Anybody who measures a course using a Garmin is going to be off (I saw a few posts about that). Is this annoying because it runs slower now? Sure, but they are following the rules unlike so many "fast" courses. Does it make a difference at state? Absolutely not, so let it go.
09/17/2012 7:40:45 AM
User
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 46
@spxcoachrm Well said, Ryan. Thanks!
@spxcoachrm
Well said, Ryan. Thanks!
09/17/2012 8:30:20 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 602
Yes, if you check this and other discussion boards you'll see the threads concerning the flaw in measuring with GPS. It can cause short or long measurements and is unlikely to yield an exact one because it actually uses point to point straight segments. You can even see that with one on a track. tp
Yes, if you check this and other discussion boards you'll see the threads concerning the flaw in measuring with GPS. It can cause short or long measurements and is unlikely to yield an exact one because it actually uses point to point straight segments. You can even see that with one on a track.
tp
09/17/2012 9:17:59 AM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
@spxcoachrm It does make a difference at state because it is different. I don't care if it is 3.0 or 3.2, but it is different. We have no historical record in GA regarding XC and we had finally started building one with Carrollton. Think about it, we have had at least 3 different locations for the state meet, the last location (Carrollton) now has between 3 major changes and 5-6 total variations depeding on how you count them, and we are missing tons of state meet results from as recent as 2000 or 2001. It is sad. How many times has Holmdel Park in NJ been changed? Or the Ohio or Illinois state courses? Truthfully, we have no way of ever saying "greatest ever" or really even convincing our kids that they belond on the elite list of Georgia runners if we have no reference point. I like Carrollton (minus the road crossings and terrible bottle neck at the start). I like that it is challenging. It is not about distance though, it is about consistency! The 2011 version fell under NFHS guidelines so just keep it the same!
@spxcoachrm

It does make a difference at state because it is different. I don't care if it is 3.0 or 3.2, but it is different. We have no historical record in GA regarding XC and we had finally started building one with Carrollton. Think about it, we have had at least 3 different locations for the state meet, the last location (Carrollton) now has between 3 major changes and 5-6 total variations depeding on how you count them, and we are missing tons of state meet results from as recent as 2000 or 2001. It is sad.

How many times has Holmdel Park in NJ been changed? Or the Ohio or Illinois state courses?

Truthfully, we have no way of ever saying "greatest ever" or really even convincing our kids that they belond on the elite list of Georgia runners if we have no reference point. I like Carrollton (minus the road crossings and terrible bottle neck at the start). I like that it is challenging. It is not about distance though, it is about consistency! The 2011 version fell under NFHS guidelines so just keep it the same!
09/17/2012 9:23:58 AM
Admin
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1047
@MaristXCcoach I see your point. Personally I don't care which course we use for state, but I understand that's just me. I just feel everybody has to run the same course on the same day. Conditions from year to year, and even morning to afternoon have greatly affected the course in the past anyway. So a slightly longer course really means nothing to me. But again, that's just me. My point was that it's not long. It bothers me when people use GPS watches to measure courses. Also, it's the correct length by the measurement standard that should be used EVERYWHERE. There are alot of "5k's" in Georgia that are using bad measuring standards, but it's like that everywhere.
@MaristXCcoach

I see your point. Personally I don't care which course we use for state, but I understand that's just me. I just feel everybody has to run the same course on the same day. Conditions from year to year, and even morning to afternoon have greatly affected the course in the past anyway. So a slightly longer course really means nothing to me. But again, that's just me.

My point was that it's not long. It bothers me when people use GPS watches to measure courses. Also, it's the correct length by the measurement standard that should be used EVERYWHERE. There are alot of "5k's" in Georgia that are using bad measuring standards, but it's like that everywhere.
09/17/2012 9:25:04 AM
User
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 44
@MaristXCCoach Well said. Why not get more input from long time coaches. Better yet at least let the coaches know of the change before the run. It's only a matter of time befor this board starts the annual debate of changing the State Meet to another course. This weekends course change will only enhance that.
@MaristXCCoach Well said. Why not get more input from long time coaches. Better yet at least let the coaches know of the change before the run. It's only a matter of time befor this board starts the annual debate of changing the State Meet to another course. This weekends course change will only enhance that.
09/17/2012 9:30:22 AM
Power User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 819
@gawebmaster I'm glad you said something, webmaster. Lumping together all meet directors, or all timers, or all programs, and making blanket statements about them is unfair and inaccurate. Not all meet directors, timers, or programs are great. But they aren't all bad either, and it's easy to judge when all the information might not be out there. I remember at some point in the last few months Pre1962 was asking why there wasn't as much discussion on the boards as there has been in the past. I am a firm believer that it is because of the negativity that frequently arises. I love the posts where people are free to make their own predictions or opinions be known, but in a respectful and tolerate way (ie-realizing there are different opinions/ways of doing things other than one firm way). If people feel like they are just going to be shot down, or baited into an argument by someone who doesn't listen to their side, then they might just think 'why bother?" and not post anything. Sorry if this sounds too soapbox-ish! Just really love our sport and this site and want it to be a great thing, not a divisive thing.
@gawebmaster

I'm glad you said something, webmaster. Lumping together all meet directors, or all timers, or all programs, and making blanket statements about them is unfair and inaccurate. Not all meet directors, timers, or programs are great. But they aren't all bad either, and it's easy to judge when all the information might not be out there.

I remember at some point in the last few months Pre1962 was asking why there wasn't as much discussion on the boards as there has been in the past. I am a firm believer that it is because of the negativity that frequently arises. I love the posts where people are free to make their own predictions or opinions be known, but in a respectful and tolerate way (ie-realizing there are different opinions/ways of doing things other than one firm way). If people feel like they are just going to be shot down, or baited into an argument by someone who doesn't listen to their side, then they might just think 'why bother?" and not post anything.

Sorry if this sounds too soapbox-ish! Just really love our sport and this site and want it to be a great thing, not a divisive thing.
09/17/2012 9:34:52 AM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
@spxcoachrm You are right when it comes to determining the state champion. Same course, same conditions...I get that. It could be on a track or up a mountain and it works. However, I feel that the state meet ought to be bigger than just determining the state champion -- we need to build tradition here in Georgia and this does not help it at all. Brendan Mahoney was/is probably the greatest middle distance runner in Georgia history (1:49, 4:03 - National Champion). He won state at the Old Carrollton course in 16:37 or something like that. I hate having to explain that the course was different, that it was hillier, that there was mulch that year, that a school building didn't exist, there were more woods, ad infinitum/nauseum. Do I really think that David Connolly was a better a runner than Mahoney because he ran 16:17? Nope, but David has a better Carrollton time because the course was different. Footlocker is probably the only "important" meet that hasn't had major changes and even though it has its own length controversies (see USATF Club Nationals 5k discussion and NCAA div II regionals two years ago), at least it is consistent. **Again, I know that I look like a hypocrit because of the changes on Marist's course. I agree with consistency about measuring from course to course, but I will emphasize that as long as the coach reports the distance accurately, I don't care how long/short it is. It is misrepresentation that bothers me. That is why I choose not to attend certain meets. If the meet is 2.9 every year I am happy and if it is 3.2 every year I am happy; just tell me how long it is.
@spxcoachrm

You are right when it comes to determining the state champion. Same course, same conditions...I get that. It could be on a track or up a mountain and it works. However, I feel that the state meet ought to be bigger than just determining the state champion -- we need to build tradition here in Georgia and this does not help it at all. Brendan Mahoney was/is probably the greatest middle distance runner in Georgia history (1:49, 4:03 - National Champion). He won state at the Old Carrollton course in 16:37 or something like that. I hate having to explain that the course was different, that it was hillier, that there was mulch that year, that a school building didn't exist, there were more woods, ad infinitum/nauseum. Do I really think that David Connolly was a better a runner than Mahoney because he ran 16:17? Nope, but David has a better Carrollton time because the course was different. Footlocker is probably the only "important" meet that hasn't had major changes and even though it has its own length controversies (see USATF Club Nationals 5k discussion and NCAA div II regionals two years ago), at least it is consistent. **Again, I know that I look like a hypocrit because of the changes on Marist's course.

I agree with consistency about measuring from course to course, but I will emphasize that as long as the coach reports the distance accurately, I don't care how long/short it is. It is misrepresentation that bothers me. That is why I choose not to attend certain meets. If the meet is 2.9 every year I am happy and if it is 3.2 every year I am happy; just tell me how long it is.
09/17/2012 9:50:47 AM
User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 300
@MaristXCcoach Is Connelly faster at Carrollton then the Coffed & Turnbull era kids?
@MaristXCcoach
Is Connelly faster at Carrollton then the Coffed & Turnbull era kids?
09/17/2012 9:56:37 AM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
@ustawas I hope the formatting comes out correct. Connolly won his senior year by 20 seconds over a Marist's William Raffety if I recall and was unchallenged and alone for the last 2.1m. He could have run much, much faster. That may have cost us being ranked #1 all class that year as we scored less than 30 points but when results were merged Connolly was scored higher because of his time. Turnbull had mono his senior year for region/state and did not compete. He was probably a sub 16 guy at state if that didn't happen. Rank Name Year Time Place Course Teams Class # on Team 1 Bobby Sams 1978 16:07.0 2 AWW AAA 1 2 Michael Thurston 2011 16:11.9 2 NNC 32 Teams AAAA 1 3 Pete Zimmerman 2004 16:14.9 2 NC 24 Teams AAAA 1 4 David Connolly 2008 16:16.2 1 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1 5 James Raffety 2003 16:19.5 1 NC 22 Teams AAAA 1 6 Dougie Coffed 2003 16:23.2 3 NC 22 Teams AAAA 2 David Connolly 2007 16:25.8 5 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1 7 Rob Heroman 2004 16:26.2 4 NC 24 Teams AAAA 2 8 Jack Bourbonnais 2004 16:28.5 5 NC 24 Teams AAAA 3 9 David Delmonte 1984 16:29 4 ABSC 16 Teams AAA 1 10 William Raffety 2006 16:29.9 5 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1 Bobby Sams 1977 16:37.0 7 AWW 2* Teams AA 1 William Raffety 2008 16:37.1 2 NC 32 Teams AAAA 2 11 John Whitcomb 2004 16:37.2 7 NC 24 Teams AAAA 4 12 Brendan Mahoney 1998 16:37.4 1 OC 18 Teams AAA 1
@ustawas

I hope the formatting comes out correct. Connolly won his senior year by 20 seconds over a Marist's William Raffety if I recall and was unchallenged and alone for the last 2.1m. He could have run much, much faster. That may have cost us being ranked #1 all class that year as we scored less than 30 points but when results were merged Connolly was scored higher because of his time. Turnbull had mono his senior year for region/state and did not compete. He was probably a sub 16 guy at state if that didn't happen.

Rank Name Year Time Place Course Teams Class # on Team
1 Bobby Sams 1978 16:07.0 2 AWW AAA 1
2 Michael Thurston 2011 16:11.9 2 NNC 32 Teams AAAA 1
3 Pete Zimmerman 2004 16:14.9 2 NC 24 Teams AAAA 1
4 David Connolly 2008 16:16.2 1 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1
5 James Raffety 2003 16:19.5 1 NC 22 Teams AAAA 1
6 Dougie Coffed 2003 16:23.2 3 NC 22 Teams AAAA 2
David Connolly 2007 16:25.8 5 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1
7 Rob Heroman 2004 16:26.2 4 NC 24 Teams AAAA 2
8 Jack Bourbonnais 2004 16:28.5 5 NC 24 Teams AAAA 3
9 David Delmonte 1984 16:29 4 ABSC 16 Teams AAA 1
10 William Raffety 2006 16:29.9 5 NC 32 Teams AAAA 1
Bobby Sams 1977 16:37.0 7 AWW 2* Teams AA 1
William Raffety 2008 16:37.1 2 NC 32 Teams AAAA 2
11 John Whitcomb 2004 16:37.2 7 NC 24 Teams AAAA 4
12 Brendan Mahoney 1998 16:37.4 1 OC 18 Teams AAA 1
09/17/2012 10:02:18 AM
Coach
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 602
@MaristXCcoach We do have a pretty good record of the State Meet history available. Coach Walton and I have been working on this for quite some time. Because the Athens Academy website is undergoing additional changes this year it might not be available briefly but we will make sure it is back asap. [url=http://www.athensacademy.net/sports/crosscountry/ga_state_meet_history/]GA State Meet History[/url] This link should work and shows the results from '75 to '79 on the blog and the subsequent ones on a grid that is linked at the top. We still have gaps but there are lost of good results. We haven't added those since 2006 since they are readily available on milesplit although I'd like to at some point. tp
@MaristXCcoach
We do have a pretty good record of the State Meet history available. Coach Walton and I have been working on this for quite some time. Because the Athens Academy website is undergoing additional changes this year it might not be available briefly but we will make sure it is back asap.
GA State Meet History

This link should work and shows the results from '75 to '79 on the blog and the subsequent ones on a grid that is linked at the top. We still have gaps but there are lost of good results. We haven't added those since 2006 since they are readily available on milesplit although I'd like to at some point.

tp
09/17/2012 10:28:36 AM
User
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 214
[quote=gawebmaster]It needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away...[/quote] @gawebmaster I am not sure that telling people to go to LetsRun is a great way to keep this board alive. The discussion here hangs by a thread for the most part. Can I ask why it was such an offense to call out the perfect timing group for this weekends timing failure? Would you not consider their service a failure this weekend? This board often wreaks of an ol' boys club attitude. That may be why there are essentially zero parents and athletes that participate in the discussions.
gawebmaster wrote:
It needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away...


@gawebmaster
I am not sure that telling people to go to LetsRun is a great way to keep this board alive. The discussion here hangs by a thread for the most part.

Can I ask why it was such an offense to call out the perfect timing group for this weekends timing failure? Would you not consider their service a failure this weekend?

This board often wreaks of an ol' boys club attitude. That may be why there are essentially zero parents and athletes that participate in the discussions.
09/17/2012 10:33:52 AM
Power User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 835
@tpee I have used your awesome website extensively! I love it and am so thankful for it. You guys have done an incredible job compiling this stuff. The latest uploads for the late 70's actually gave us some information that we hadn't know about some top runners that had been completely forgotten. You are right in that there are very large gaps for certain years and that is not your fault. Those unfortunately are the years I have been looking for! Given the time frame, I figured the GHSA would have had the foresight to save stuff especially by the mid 90's and early 2000's. I have years that Marist won state championships where all I have is the team scores for the top 4 (thank you GHSA). It is unfortunate.
@tpee

I have used your awesome website extensively! I love it and am so thankful for it. You guys have done an incredible job compiling this stuff. The latest uploads for the late 70's actually gave us some information that we hadn't know about some top runners that had been completely forgotten.

You are right in that there are very large gaps for certain years and that is not your fault. Those unfortunately are the years I have been looking for! Given the time frame, I figured the GHSA would have had the foresight to save stuff especially by the mid 90's and early 2000's. I have years that Marist won state championships where all I have is the team scores for the top 4 (thank you GHSA). It is unfortunate.
09/17/2012 10:44:39 AM
User
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 175
[quote=Matthews]gawebmasterIt needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away... @gawebmaster I am not sure that telling people to go to LetsRun is a great way to keep this board alive. The discussion here hangs by a thread for the most part. Can I ask why it was such an offense to call out the perfect timing group for this weekends timing failure? Would you not consider their service a failure this weekend? This board often wreaks of an ol' boys club attitude. That may be why there are essentially zero parents and athletes that participate in the discussions.[/quote] @Matthews For once I agree with you on something. All people want is communication when things go pear shaped. If those involved in these unfortunate events would just come on this site and simply say. "We ackonwledge the problem, We are working on it and will update you when it is fixed. The attacks start when people need to be heard. Proactive is always better than reactive!!!
Matthews wrote:
gawebmasterIt needs to stop, especially ripping good people, coaches, programs, meets, meet directors, etc. Constructive commentary is welcome...ripping on people at their expense is not, especially when circumstances may have been out of their control. Deletion of posts will happen. Go to Lets Run and rip away...

@gawebmaster
I am not sure that telling people to go to LetsRun is a great way to keep this board alive. The discussion here hangs by a thread for the most part.

Can I ask why it was such an offense to call out the perfect timing group for this weekends timing failure? Would you not consider their service a failure this weekend?

This board often wreaks of an ol' boys club attitude. That may be why there are essentially zero parents and athletes that participate in the discussions.


@Matthews For once I agree with you on something.

All people want is communication when things go pear shaped. If those involved in these unfortunate events would just come on this site and simply say. "We ackonwledge the problem, We are working on it and will update you when it is fixed. The attacks start when people need to be heard. Proactive is always better than reactive!!!
09/17/2012 10:47:32 AM
User
SUBSCRIBER
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 66
@spxcoachrm As of this year, everybody will NOT be running on the same course. So, as of this year the historical data will NOT be accurate. Shouldn't we figure out a solution that WILL allow all classifications to run on the same course? Same day would be optimum, but maybe not possible. All classifications should at least run on the same course within two days of each other if we want anything even close to comparable for our historical stats. I'm just a parent, and I'm not negative. But I have one very disappointed runner that had to run JV for two years when other states would have allowed her to run varsity. And the year she finally is eligible to run varsity they tell her she cannot run at the "real" state meet. Many tears, very disappointed.
@spxcoachrm

As of this year, everybody will NOT be running on the same course. So, as of this year the historical data will NOT be accurate. Shouldn't we figure out a solution that WILL allow all classifications to run on the same course? Same day would be optimum, but maybe not possible. All classifications should at least run on the same course within two days of each other if we want anything even close to comparable for our historical stats.

I'm just a parent, and I'm not negative. But I have one very disappointed runner that had to run JV for two years when other states would have allowed her to run varsity. And the year she finally is eligible to run varsity they tell her she cannot run at the "real" state meet. Many tears, very disappointed.

You must be logged in to comment.

Click Here to Log In.